Brandon Cifani is engaged in fraud

[aschup]

He's a minor, contact his parents and the police. And since this is interstate fraud, the FBI as well.

I'm glad we're all keeping a level head and staying away from absurd hyperbole.

[kirchh]

Brandon Cifani wrote,

I was simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me.

Brandon Cifani is lying. Again.

When two people buy into a collection, they each pay part of the price, and they each get some of the pens.

In Brandon Cifani's fraud, putting aside all the lies he told about owning the collection, he was asking George Rimakis to pay $33,300 to get 12 of the items, while Brandon was going to come away with four pens, including the two most valuable. And how much was Brandon going to pay to "buy into the collection"?

Let's do the math.

The total I gave Brandon for all 16 items was $26,000.

So, Brandon Cifani was plotting to take George's $33,300 and give $26,000 to me, thus pocketing $7,300. And, he was going to keep four of the pens, worth several thousand dollars.

So now, in a desperate attempt to deny responsibility for his fraud, he has concocted yet another shameless lie, which is trivially exposed, as are so many of his lies.

I don't know if the cover-up is worse than the crime, but certainly if anyone had any doubt about the depths of Brandon Cifani's dishonesty and the emptiness of his apologies, this most recent falsehood should put those doubts to rest.

--Daniel

[Jon Szanto]

Daniel, you should post that same post on FPB.

[david i]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...aged-in-fraud/

I would note that "doing the math" in this case is irrelevant.

Pocketing a profit from an arranged/brokered/partnered deal is good and proper in many circumstances.

The issue of taking money for pens with a claim of owning them, when one not only doesn't own them and indeed never will, is the rub.

regards

David

[Laura N]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...aged-in-fraud/

I would note that "doing the math" in this case is irrelevant.

Pocketing a profit from an arranged/brokered/partnered deal is good and proper in many circumstances.

The issue of taking money for pens with a claim of owning them, when one not only doesn't own them and indeed never will, is the rub.

regards

David

In other words, he didn't present himself as a broker. He said he owned the pens. That is a proven misrepresentation.

However, the amount he was seeking to profit from the deal is not immaterial. It is staggering. He was seeking to walk away with a net of four pens "worth thousands" plus more than $7,000 in cash. He was seeking a gross amount from his target of $33,300.

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

[kirchh]

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

And my specific point was that Brandon Cifani's representation that he was "simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me" is provably false, because Brandon wasn't going to be buying in at all -- the opposite is true: he was going to be profiting. When two people buy into a purchase, they share the cost, and they share the goods. Brandon cannot support his offered rationalization in that regard, because he was trying to get George to pay the entire cost -- plus another $7,000+ for Brandon to pocket. So the math exposes Brandon's claim of what he was "simply looking" to do as yet another lie.

--Daniel

[CS388]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...aged-in-fraud/

Gosh. That's pretty irrefutable!

I had no idea this sort of thing was going on.

Good work, all. Thanks.

[david i]

In other words, he didn't present himself as a broker. He said he owned the pens. That is a proven misrepresentation.

However, the amount he was seeking to profit from the deal is not immaterial. It is staggering. He was seeking to walk away with a net of four pens "worth thousands" plus more than $7,000 in cash. He was seeking a gross amount from his target of $33,300.

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...aged-in-fraud/

I would note that "doing the math" in this case is irrelevant.

Pocketing a profit from an arranged/brokered/partnered deal is good and proper in many circumstances.

The issue of taking money for pens with a claim of owning them, when one not only doesn't own them and indeed never will, is the rub.

regards

David

In other words, he didn't present himself as a broker. He said he owned the pens. That is a proven misrepresentation.

However, the amount he was seeking to profit from the deal is not immaterial. It is staggering. He was seeking to walk away with a net of four pens "worth thousands" plus more than $7,000 in cash. He was seeking a gross amount from his target of $33,300.

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

Hi Laura,

Yes, the key ethical issue-- and this is only the latest in his chain of prior blips-- is his attempts to sell pens as his, pens which he did not own, which-- incidentally or not incidentally-- he in fact would never and could never own. His multiple banishments from ebay and his claims via his latest ebay incarnation that his cash on hand to buy pens was "unlimited", adds charm-- of a sort -- to the mix. That he tried to sell me my own (i had the actual pen) pen on one occasion, a pen worth a grand or two, certainly sets context for my views regarding him.

Here is four page thread at Fountain Pen Board, showing typical Brandon, inquiring about pens in the general case, pens he actually was offering in trade to people, pens he had seen in pictures others had sent him, pens he did not own and never would. It gets interesting around page 2.

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...12-variations/

As to math, the presence of profit indeed is not relevant to the ethics in play, as the issue never was about making profit on pen sales, it was-- as you noted-- about fraud.

But, in the more general case on which I believe you touch, "How much profit is acceptable in various pen deals", I can provide some thoughts and examples for consideration.

Most pen retailers who take pens on consignment to sell pens for collectors charge 30-40%, assuming the collection/ pens are worth the hassle. When pens are sold outright to dealers, barring some monster pens, generally the buy price must be < 50% of retail.

If I had chance to broker a set of high end pens of great cachet, with a purchase price of $25k, would I offer to sell most of the pens for $33k while keeping a few thousand dollars in pens for myself?

Probably.

Then there is the other end of the process. I have put together purchasing consortiums in which I have charged nothing to my compadres. At the Ohio Pen Show (Nov 2012) a long time dealer wanted to sell his massive collection which included many great pens, rarities seen in some of the big pen books. The wholesale offering (itself about 40% of retail price) was claimed to run $250k prior to inspection. Too much of me to eat. I put together a group of five people, inviting four long time pen friends (dealers/collectors) to partner. I did not charge a finder's fee. The total purchase came to just 40% of the first guess, after we limited certain aspects of the purchase. I could have used fewer partners, as I would have not minded keeping more pens. So, two principles in one. We bought the pens for 40% of their sales value. But, in this case, I charged my friends nothing to participate.

Where would Brandon's "deal" fall amongst these models, had the "deal" been an actual deal? In my view not wholly unreasonable. On that point, to each his own

As to the Ohio Pen Show purchase. We named our group the Gang of Five, Pens. If you search Facebook for Gang of Five Pens, you can see our page. I'm a bit embarrassed that on the fountainpenboard.com Gang of Five thread, I have not yet put pics of ALL the pens up, but many are up and more will be done next week or two.

You can see the Gang of Five Pens discussion at Fountain Pen Board here:

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...en-collection/

So, Brandon's issues, beside atrocious spelling and grammar, along with his belief that his writing is good, include multiple bouts with variously fraudulent attempts to buy/broker, lies on different websites about his age (claiming age 21 on a gun site when he was 16-17), multiple episodes of failing to pay for pens he won on ebay, a delusional view of what goes into being a dealer in vintage items, and failure to understand when these things are pointed out to him. It is a bit tragic.

I really don't know that he planned to steal $33k. His core delusion appears to be that he can broker sales without laying out any cash, that he'll make his cut during the process. His actions still were frank fraud, and posed huge potential damage to his "clients" and legal risk to him, but I'm not sold he is merely a thief. But he might be. That he thinks he might "broker" a deal between advanced collectors, that he offers $100 pens in trade for $1000 pens, that he is utterly convinced of his ability, when he lacks that ability are… sad.

regards

david

[david i]

So I think "doing the math" is relevant. First, it shows that this person's capacity for harm is non-trivial. Second, this amount is felony territory. The math matters.

And my specific point was that Brandon Cifani's representation that he was "simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me" is provably false, because Brandon wasn't going to be buying in at all -- the opposite is true: he was going to be profiting. When two people buy into a purchase, they share the cost, and they share the goods. Brandon cannot support his offered rationalization in that regard, because he was trying to get George to pay the entire cost -- plus another $7,000+ for Brandon to pocket. So the math exposes Brandon's claim of what he was "simply looking" to do as yet another lie.

--Daniel

No,

As at least implied by my post to Laura, just above this current post, "buying into a collection with me" does not necessitate equal value-for-investment. That is what was referenced by my analysis of "the math".

That Brandon engages in many lies, I most certainly do not dispute, especially as I am one of the major forces, long preceding this thread, addressing and characterizing Brandon's approach to pen dealings. This has nothing to do with math.

That Brandon had not bought (and in fact could not buy) the pens in question I most certainly do not dispute (see prior sentence). This has nothing to do with math.

I merely point out that "the math" of a "purchase arrangement" for this collection (were the collection for sale, had Brandon bought it, or had Brandon planned a partnership to buy it) is irrelevant, because purchase arrangements are subject to quite variable terms, even when the casual term, "share" is invoked.

I do not recognize that shared purchase of a collection requires equal terms. One can, of course, address what elements go into kind, fair, reasonable shared purchases, but that is a theme for a separate post/thread.

regards

David

[david i]

It is good to see FPB and FPG cross pollinating.

Do peek over there for more of Brandon's gems. Kid's on a roll today

http://www.fountainpenboard.com/foru...aged-in-fraud/

Gosh. That's pretty irrefutable!

I had no idea this sort of thing was going on.

Good work, all. Thanks.

You are very welcome

regards

david

[HughC]

So, Brandon's issues, beside atrocious spelling and grammar, along with his belief that his writing is good, include multiple bouts with variously fraudulent attempts to buy/broker, lies on different websites about his age (claiming age 21 on a gun site when he was 16-17), multiple episodes of failing to pay for pens he won on ebay, a delusional view of what goes into being a dealer in vintage items, and failure to understand when these things are pointed out to him. It is a bit tragic.

I really don't know that he planned to steal $33k. His core delusion appears to be that he can broker sales without laying out any cash, that he'll make his cut during the process. His actions still were frank fraud, and posed huge potential damage to his "clients" and legal risk to him, but I'm not sold he is merely a thief. But he might be. That he thinks he might "broker" a deal between advanced collectors, that he offers $100 pens in trade for $1000 pens, that he is utterly convinced of his ability, when he lacks that ability are… sad.

regards

david

I think you've summed up well David, tragic and sad are appropriate. I also doubt theft was the motive, I see an obsession that drives irrational thoughts and behavior that when combined with a lack of understanding the consequences of his actions produces this sort of farcical situation (again). In this case the amount of money involved is serious. He needs both professional help and his online activities need to be monitored by a responsible adult.

Regards
Hugh

[KrazyIvan]

This guy contacted me to inquire about some pens but I was not selling. It has been quite a while back. Now I wonder if he used any of my pictures in his dealings.

[Laura N]

David, I don't want to quote your entire post #28. I do agree with what you are saying.

However I don't want there to be any inadvertent mis-impression of my comments. I did not say or imply anything about theft. Like you i assume he intended to deliver the pens. In fact, my math, and Daniel's, assumed he delivered the pens and received the $7,000 and the four agreed pens.

I was trying to say that a transaction involving $33,000 is on a whole different scale. This is for Brandon's benefit as much as anyone's.

[Nonsensical]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

The stuff he writes makes my brain hurt. Which is unfortunate, since threads imvolving him are also quite interesting...

[david i]

David, I don't want to quote your entire post #28. I do agree with what you are saying.

However I don't want there to be any inadvertent mis-impression of my comments. I did not say or imply anything about theft. Like you i assume he intended to deliver the pens. In fact, my math, and Daniel's, assumed he delivered the pens and received the $7,000 and the four agreed pens.

I was trying to say that a transaction involving $33,000 is on a whole different scale. This is for Brandon's benefit as much as anyone's.

Hi Laura,

I agree with you entirely regarding the scale and import of Brandon's latest... effort. The fraud indeed is the key.

For what it is worth, I (in my role as Poseur Pen Dealer Par Excellence) would have no ethical qualms in a real situation in which someone approached me to liquidate a $25k pen collection at once, with (if I could find the right buyer) keeping $7k in pens and selling the remainder at $33k. That is... about... the right... spread.

I cannot here well convey the entertainment value though in watching someone-- who does not know even the names and models of the pens he sees-- having the hubris and chutzpa to attempt to execute such a deal, if there actually had been a deal of this sort to execute. Which, brings us back to Hugh's post (with my quote) just above

Regards

David

[subramaniyam]

Wow. What an eye-opening thread. Just proves the power of community and how it can help fight 'bad' things. Having started my first classified here, this was a great primer on the ethics of online business. I'll probably be clicking the 'Thanks' button on every post here!!!

Respects.
Subramaniyam

[CapeClear]

A bizarre read. Fair play to all involved in exposing this.

[Manny]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

The stuff he writes makes my brain hurt. Which is unfortunate, since threads imvolving him are also quite interesting...

[Manny]

[Sailor Kenshin]

On e of these days, you gotta put what pen and ink you're using into the posts.