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Thread: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

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    Default Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Has anyone noticed that the tines on your pens get misaligned meaning that one tine is higher than the other. I experiences this with a M800, which was fixed at a pen show by Masuyama, and now my m400. The M800 is a fine, which i thought might be more prone to misalignment because the tines are thinner but now the m400, which is a medium, is doing the same thing.

    Mike Masuyama did comment on the design of the pelikan nib units. The way the nib is only held in place at the end makes it highly likely that when the unit is screwed into the barrel that the torsional forces exerted will misalign the feed to the nib. This causes the nib to not rest evenly on the feed and the feed pressing on one of the tines.

    He also observed that the tines on the m800 were not symmetrical, with one tine ever so slightly wider than the other. Now i see the same on the m400 and having the same problem with misalignment.

    Last year I asked the same question on other forums and others have commented on how I held the pen and maybe that was the problem. At the time I had one year less experience and also less experience with other pens. Now one year later, i'm sure I'm holding the pens the correct way and none of my other pens have this problem.

    Can you guys chime in with your experiences? Sorry I'm not able to take a photo that will actually show what I'm talking about.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Misaligned tines on Pelikans out of the box is common. QC is sloppy and general quality on the modern ones is mediocre.

    I don't bother with them anymore.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Out of 10 nibs for 7 pens I have never had tines misaligned on my Pelikans. I also don't have any that write too wide like everybody says. Maybe I'm just lucky. Most of my nibs are steel with only 3 gold nibs. My gold ones are all M's, the steel are 1-F, 1-M, 4-B, 1-Italic.

    I expect many people have larger collections of Pelikan than I do and maybe have different results.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    I have not encountered this problem in any of my Pelikans.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    I haven't encountered this problem.

    But ... if it's the design of the screw-in nib, would that also be true for other similar arrangements, for instance on Esterbrooks? It would be interesting to know.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Misaligned tines on new out of the box Pelikans is a well documented 'phenomenon'... usually easily fixed by end user with gentle finger work.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Never faced any troubles with new (and vintage) Pelikans.
    The quality I experienced was always top notch (also on the cheap new ones, much better than most other brands).

    The above mentioned theory about building quality of screw in units sounds crude to me.
    Pelikan uses such nib units more than 70 years with great success.
    Agreed, that a ham fisted user always can do damage trying to screw in and out units (normally there is no need to do so for a user, but I know that the cleaning fetishists are tempted to screw them in and out all the time).

    People have to understand that screwing in/out nib units is nothing a unskilled user should do.
    It is not a user interface process!

    Let us compare it with screwing in and out things on your car engine.
    How often will e.g. an air-mass Sensor or similar will survive until it take damage when an unskilled person will screw it in and out every month.... (even when a skilled person do it, as they are not designed to withstand such things many times)
    Is it therefore a bad quality or design? NO

    So a not easily changing unit like Montblanc using it might really the better option for the broad ham fisted masses.
    As nobody from them ever is tempted to screw them in and out all the time and complaining afterwards about quality (for disassable parts of the pen which they are not supposed to disassemble).


    In case somebody notice that his tines got misaligned over time.
    And it was not caused by misuse like screwing in/out the unit all the time, let it fell down, did not handle with care on open/close,.....
    Then there is normally only one option left, it was misaligned by the extensive forces used by a ballpoint barbarian.
    Even modern nibs are really rigid and sturdy, they are not immune to destructive forces applied by the user, smashing down the nib until it begs for mercy (e.g. my son destroyed already one nib, even he claims the did nothing wrong... but users always claims this )


    And finally claiming that misaligned tines on new Pelikan pens is a well documented phenomenon is imo also not true.
    The existing of some user threads which claims that is for me neither evidence nor something statistically proven.
    In best case some really happened, as no company is flawless, in worst case users were not able to use their tool properly or damaged it by themselves.

    Imagine the huge amount of pens Pelikan sells, and that people always talk about things which did not went right, normally never about things that were ok.


    A single damaged pen received tells you nothing about the quality of the production or quality control.
    I received once a completely unusable nib on a Sheaffer Valor.
    Not one with a misaligned tine or a slightly grind problem, I received it with a completely unusable messed grind, only capable using it as a carving tool not a writing device.
    Nobody ever wrote a line, just impossible, with this Sheaffer, neither in the factory nor the selling company which claimed to test every single pen before shipping.

    But would I claim that Sheaffer in general has a quality issue, of course not, until it is really proven with a great amount of cases.
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; October 15th, 2018 at 12:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Yes but only when it was my fault. The last one I purchased new was very tight and I misaligned the tines taking the nib out. I fixed it but I'm more careful now and I put a tiny dab of silicon grease on the threads with the tip of a toothpick.
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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Richard Binder, on his site, explained that you should cradle the feed of the nib unit of a Pelikan in a finger joint to screw it in or out. This is logical, and I have not experienced a misalignment issue with Pelikan nibs. I am sure it's possible to destroy anything by mistakes in handling.

    If you claim that something is well documented, you should refer to the documentation, otherwise why should anyone believe it is well-documented? I agree with Pterodactylus, above.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Some years ago I was attending a pen show and got chatting to a UK nibmister known as Mr S. He mentioned about the Pilot Falcon nib being really difficult to work with, but when the conversation took a turn for a Pelikan that I'd been considering on eBay he was like "Noooo, I really wouldn't bother". It then cued him to introduce me to a Sailor as an example of a good nib, in contrast.

    Within the last year there was an AMA on Reddit from a well known US nibmeister, and during the conversation 2 of the people that worked there and who deal with nibs every day referred to Pelikans as being "art pieces" because the nibs out of the factory were shocking. They also said they see lots of incidence of baby's bottom on Pelikans.

    I consider nibmeister's views to be good evidence.
    Last edited by Medieval; October 15th, 2018 at 12:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Some years ago I was attending a pen show and got chatting to a UK nibmister known as Mr S. He mentioned about the Pilot Falcon nib being really difficult to work with, but when the conversation took a turn for a Pelikan that I'd been considering on eBay he was like "Noooo, I really wouldn't bother". It then cued him to introduce me to a Sailor as an example of a good nib, in contrast.

    Within the last year there was an AMA on Reddit from a well known US nibmeister, and during the conversation 2 of the people that worked there and who deal with nibs every day referred to Pelikans as being "art pieces" because the nibs out of the factory were shocking. They also said they see lots of incidence of baby's bottom on Pelikans.

    I consider nibmeister's views to be good evidence.
    So, all my Pelikans that seem quite good are really then junk, because of some smack from Mr. S, which we can't verify?


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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Some years ago I was attending a pen show and got chatting to a UK nibmister known as Mr S. He mentioned about the Pilot Falcon nib being really difficult to work with, but when the conversation took a turn for a Pelikan that I'd been considering on eBay he was like "Noooo, I really wouldn't bother". It then cued him to introduce me to a Sailor as an example of a good nib, in contrast.

    Within the last year there was an AMA on Reddit from a well known US nibmeister, and during the conversation 2 of the people that worked there and who deal with nibs every day referred to Pelikans as being "art pieces" because the nibs out of the factory were shocking. They also said they see lots of incidence of baby's bottom on Pelikans.

    I consider nibmeister's views to be good evidence.
    So, all my Pelikans that seem quite good are really then junk, because of some smack from Mr. S, which we can't verify?


    I guess this is what it means.....


    I for my part also enjoy my junk pens, and I have quite a lot birds, vintage and modern.


    Not a single one was a disappointment and if there is a brand I would always recommend to new users searching for a quality pen, then Pelikan, as imho you will always get a high quality product, no matter if you buy a cheap or expensive one.



    Quote 021 by Ptero Pterodactylus, auf Flickr

    (Pelikan M205 Blue-Marbled - B EMF ..... Colorverse Crystal Planet provided by Scooby 921)

    Oh my gosh... this bird has a modified nib .......... but not because the nib had a flaw in itˋs original state, just because I like flex nibs and I wanted to see how much flex I can add to a modern bird nib.

    Sorry for that, I have to admit that I‘m a flex addict....


    So let me try it another time......

    Maybe this one.....


    Quote 028 by Ptero Pterodactylus, auf Flickr

    (Pelikan 100N - EF ..... Mystery Ink #18 provided by Scooby921)


    No,no, no... again wrong, this is a vintage bird, let me try it again, despite also these almost 70 years old pens have already the mentioned crappy designed nib units ..... and I consider the 50s birds as some of the best pens ever made, I want to get this right......


    Show_response_787 by Ptero Pterodactylus, auf Flickr

    (Pelikan 400NN Brown Tortoise - OB ..... Iroshizuku Asa Goa)

    Again wrong....

    Ok, here we go, let’s try this one....


    Quote 019 by Ptero Pterodactylus, auf Flickr

    (Pelikan P458 Airpen Silber ..... Private Reserve Tanzanite)


    Damn, again wrong, this is my old school bird, which does not have the crappy nib unit, but saw a lot of abuse and is still alive.
    I better not tell how I tortured and abused this pen back in school, otherwise I fear I will be banned from any pen forum.

    Last try....


    Show_response_38 by Ptero Pterodactylus, auf Flickr

    (Pelikan M600 Black-Blue - M)


    Puuhhhhh, yes this is one of my crappy modern birds, with a crappy designed nib unit and the crappy misaligned nib and the crappy grind.



    ...... strange that I never observed such things and I still love my birds in their factory default state......
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; October 15th, 2018 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Oh dear, we have touched a raw nerve haven't we. I would hazard a guess though that 5 different nibmiesters are more credible than someone who is fanatical about Pelikans.

    When you've calmed down enough to think rationally, you'll notice that we're talking about modern Pelikans, not ones that are 70 years old. The fountain pen market and manufacture has changed a lot since then, but then some people prefer to live in the past.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    I have to admit that my experience in this area is very limited. Of the 30+ Pelikans I have handled during the past 7 years only seven have been modern: M200(2), M205, M600, M805(2), M1000. None of them have had misaligned tines.

    I guess I must be lucky.




    OOPS! I forgot to add that I have also bought some loose Pelikan nibs: EF and M steel, M, B and BB in gold. No misaligned tines.
    Last edited by carlos.q; October 15th, 2018 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Oh dear, we have touched a raw nerve haven't we. I would hazard a guess though that 5 different nibmiesters are more credible than someone who is fanatical about Pelikans.

    When you've calmed down enough to think rationally, you'll notice that we're talking about modern Pelikans, not ones that are 70 years old. The fountain pen market and manufacture has changed a lot since then, but then some people prefer to live in the past.
    When you are thinking rationally, you might realize that nibmeisters have a vested interest in having you believe that Pelikans have nibs that likely need their services. You might want to accept these claims blindly, but I suggest you consider them in the light of a wider group of experiences before you decide all the new Pelikans need immediate nib alignment services. It's your money, though. I have no Pelikans older than 20 years. All have recently made nibs. These are among the few nibs that I have found 100% of to be aligned. I weigh the authoritativeness of these nibmeisters against experience, and it just doesn't jive. The nerve is that I have a college education and I examine claims and think about them. Where I have experience, I consider that. The nibmeisters' claims might be true, but I can't verify it. My experience is at variance. YMMV.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Oh dear, we have touched a raw nerve haven't we. I would hazard a guess though that 5 different nibmiesters are more credible than someone who is fanatical about Pelikans.

    When you've calmed down enough to think rationally, you'll notice that we're talking about modern Pelikans, not ones that are 70 years old. The fountain pen market and manufacture has changed a lot since then, but then some people prefer to live in the past.
    When you are thinking rationally, you might realize that nibmeisters have a vested interest in having you believe that Pelikans have nibs that likely need their services. You might want to accept these claims blindly, but I suggest you consider them in the light of a wider group of experiences before you decide all the new Pelikans need immediate nib alignment services. It's your money, though. I have no Pelikans older than 20 years. All have recently made nibs. These are among the few nibs that I have found 100% of to be aligned. I weigh the authoritativeness of these nibmeisters against experience, and it just doesn't jive. The nerve is that I have a college education and I examine claims and think about them. Where I have experience, I consider that. The nibmeisters' claims might be true, but I can't verify it. My experience is at variance. YMMV.
    For that matter they have an interest in ALL nibs needing service. Mr S, for example, as I have referred to him, would not have steered me towards an example of a brand that makes good nibs while steering me away from Pelikan. If he really wanted my custom, don't you think he would have been encouraging me to buy a Pelikan? But perhaps you're not thinking rationally either.

    Why have 5 different nibmeisters singled out Pelikan? Well maybe because it's true. I have no reason to doubt all of them especially as it tallies with my own experience and much of what I've seen and read.

    I suggest you make contact many of the better known nibmeisters for yourself if you choose not to believe me.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Oh dear, we have touched a raw nerve haven't we. I would hazard a guess though that 5 different nibmiesters are more credible than someone who is fanatical about Pelikans.

    When you've calmed down enough to think rationally, you'll notice that we're talking about modern Pelikans, not ones that are 70 years old. The fountain pen market and manufacture has changed a lot since then, but then some people prefer to live in the past.
    When you are thinking rationally, you might realize that nibmeisters have a vested interest in having you believe that Pelikans have nibs that likely need their services. You might want to accept these claims blindly, but I suggest you consider them in the light of a wider group of experiences before you decide all the new Pelikans need immediate nib alignment services. It's your money, though. I have no Pelikans older than 20 years. All have recently made nibs. These are among the few nibs that I have found 100% of to be aligned. I weigh the authoritativeness of these nibmeisters against experience, and it just doesn't jive. The nerve is that I have a college education and I examine claims and think about them. Where I have experience, I consider that. The nibmeisters' claims might be true, but I can't verify it. My experience is at variance. YMMV.
    For that matter they have an interest in ALL nibs needing service. Mr S, for example, as I have referred to him, would not have steered me towards an example of a brand that makes good nibs while steering me away from Pelikan. If he really wanted my custom, don't you think he would have been encouraging me to buy a Pelikan? But perhaps you're not thinking rationally either.

    Why have 5 different nibmeisters singled out Pelikan? Well maybe because it's true. I have no reason to doubt all of them especially as it tallies with my own experience and much of what I've seen and read.

    I suggest you make contact many of the better known nibmeisters for yourself if you choose not to believe me.
    Except for pens getting custom grinds, every pen sent in to a nibmeister has a wonky nib. In other words, 100% of the Pelikans sent to nibmeisters for service have bad nibs. That’s what’s known in the statistical world as a sampling error.

    Now factor in the type of pen that someone is likely to send in for service. Is someone who spends $75 on a pen likely to send it in for a $50 adjustment/tuning? Possibly, but probably not. Now how about a $300-600 pen? Far more likely.

    Example: Many, many years ago, Consumer Reports gave very low marks to Nakamichi cassette decks, and very high marks to Panasonic cassette decks, because the former had significantly higher repair rates than the latter. Why would anyone buy a cassette deck that was 5x more likely to be sent in for repair? Seems logical, no? To anyone who was into hifi in that era, this was a most puzzling development, since Nakamichi made the finest cassette decks in the world. The one factor that Consumer Reports hadn’t considered, however, was that Nakamichi cassette decks could easily cost in excess of $1500 (in 80s money) whereas the Panasonics were “disposable”. Obviously somebody is more likely to repair a $1500 component than they are a component whose replacement cost is less than the repair cost.

    It had nothing to do with high likely it was that the object would NEED service, but rather how likely was that the object would BE serviced.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulprit View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medieval View Post
    Oh dear, we have touched a raw nerve haven't we. I would hazard a guess though that 5 different nibmiesters are more credible than someone who is fanatical about Pelikans.

    When you've calmed down enough to think rationally, you'll notice that we're talking about modern Pelikans, not ones that are 70 years old. The fountain pen market and manufacture has changed a lot since then, but then some people prefer to live in the past.
    When you are thinking rationally, you might realize that nibmeisters have a vested interest in having you believe that Pelikans have nibs that likely need their services. You might want to accept these claims blindly, but I suggest you consider them in the light of a wider group of experiences before you decide all the new Pelikans need immediate nib alignment services. It's your money, though. I have no Pelikans older than 20 years. All have recently made nibs. These are among the few nibs that I have found 100% of to be aligned. I weigh the authoritativeness of these nibmeisters against experience, and it just doesn't jive. The nerve is that I have a college education and I examine claims and think about them. Where I have experience, I consider that. The nibmeisters' claims might be true, but I can't verify it. My experience is at variance. YMMV.
    For that matter they have an interest in ALL nibs needing service. Mr S, for example, as I have referred to him, would not have steered me towards an example of a brand that makes good nibs while steering me away from Pelikan. If he really wanted my custom, don't you think he would have been encouraging me to buy a Pelikan? But perhaps you're not thinking rationally either.

    Why have 5 different nibmeisters singled out Pelikan? Well maybe because it's true. I have no reason to doubt all of them especially as it tallies with my own experience and much of what I've seen and read.

    I suggest you make contact many of the better known nibmeisters for yourself if you choose not to believe me.
    Except for pens getting custom grinds, every pen sent in to a nibmeister has a wonky nib. In other words, 100% of the Pelikans sent to nibmeisters for service have bad nibs. That’s what’s known in the statistical world as a sampling error.

    Now factor in the type of pen that someone is likely to send in for service. Is someone who spends $75 on a pen likely to send it in for a $50 adjustment/tuning? Possibly, but probably not. Now how about a $300-600 pen? Far more likely.

    Example: Many, many years ago, Consumer Reports gave very low marks to Nakamichi cassette decks, and very high marks to Panasonic cassette decks, because the former had significantly higher repair rates than the latter. Why would anyone buy a cassette deck that was 5x more likely to be sent in for repair? Seems logical, no? To anyone who was into hifi in that era, this was a most puzzling development, since Nakamichi made the finest cassette decks in the world. The one factor that Consumer Reports hadn’t considered, however, was that Nakamichi cassette decks could easily cost in excess of $1500 (in 80s money) whereas the Panasonics were “disposable”. Obviously somebody is more likely to repair a $1500 component than they are a component whose replacement cost is less than the repair cost.

    It had nothing to do with high likely it was that the object would NEED service, but rather how likely was that the object would BE serviced.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So one would expect there to be lots of Sailor KoP and Pilot makie pens going in for nib work then.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    I don't care about any of this. My Pelikan nibs are all in alignment, as they were when I received them, new or used. Ergo, I do not place credence in the nibmeisters' claims.

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    Default Re: Misaligned tines on Pelikans

    Do most nibmeisters/technicians handle more Pelikans in a day than I own? Likely.

    But all seven of mine, some purchased previously owned, others brand new, not one has had a wonky nib. Not out of alignment, nothing. On one I did spend some extra time cleaning and ran a brass shim between the tines. (a 120 Merz & Krell I paid $17.50 for) Bought new - two of three M200's (Cognac, Brown Marbled), a M400 White Tortoise, ebay (120 M & K, M150, M200 Blue Marbled (old style) and one from Rick Propas (140).
    Brad "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind" - Rudyard Kipling

    "None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try." - Mark Twain

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