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Thread: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

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    Default King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Hey guys,

    I am new to this forum (and to quality FPs), so sorry if I am asking already answered questions, but I couldn't find anything related via the search option.

    First my situation. I study law and I am learning towards my final exams in 12 month. For the preparation I have to write about 20 - 40 pages every day, for the next 12 month. For this time and for the exams I wanted to get a good fountain pen. So, right now I am using a Pilot Custom 823 medium. I love the smooth medium nib, but I tend to write smaller, so fine would have been better. Anyways, I got this one, because of the smoothness of the nib and of the ink capacity.

    My Problem: The 823 is too small. I get cramps in my hands after 30 minutes and this hurts a lot.

    So, I wanted to get a bigger pen, and I wanna get a Sailor KOP Profit. But I can't test it before I buy it, they are not available in Germany. I am searching for 5 days now, but no one says anything about if it is usable as a daily writer and for long writing sessions (8h+).

    Question 1: Do you think that a KOP Profit is suited for 8h writing sessions - daily - or is it way too big and exhaustive for the hand ?
    (Given, that I am average 186 cm tall and my hands are not out of proportion ... )

    Now, I know that it has just 0.6ml of ink, but I don't mind to refill it with my Pineider Refiller (...awesome tool...) several times per day (...so much fun...) and I will use cartridges during the exams anyways.

    Question 2: Isn't the whole debate about the ink capacity of the KOP at least a bit obsolete, given the existence of the Pineider Refiller now?


    Now, a bit off topic. Isn't it possible to screw off the piston part of the converter and screw on a test tube with several ml as a converter modification? Didn't find anything on that. Test tubes nowadays have screw caps (no glue or something like that necessary) and come in packages of 100s, would be quite useful...

    Thanks a lot and sorry if I asked utterly nonsensical and unrelated questions...

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    I've never tried writing with a KOP for that long of a writing session but I've never had a problem in shorter sessions. The ink capacity thing will get old if you're refilling several times a day for the next year. Have you considered a Conid Kingsize? It's similar size as the KOP but has a massive ink capacity.

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    mitchell (November 18th, 2018)

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    I have not tried the pens you mentioned but my twsbi vac700r seems to go for ages without needing to be refilled. The EF nib is very smooth too.

    Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    In my opinion, with that volume of writing ahead of you, you might want to look at something with a much higher volume of ink than a standard cartridge or converter or you will be swapping/refiling every page or 3. I would look into an eyedropper filler of some kind. There are a lot of vintage pieces you can find or even go low tech and add an o ring and silicon grease to the section of a basic sheaffer no nonsense cartridge filler (omit th cart) ultra lightweight, would hold an ton of ink and the basic steel nibs are pretty nice. There are several people that reshape/grind nibs. talk with one of them for the job. Then save the high end beauties for post degree daily work.

    You can score a NN in ebay for $20 +/- for the most part.
    Last edited by Elim; November 17th, 2018 at 03:47 AM.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity


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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    I get far more than two or three pages from a single Sailor cartridge and it's easy to carry a couple boxes of such in your pocket. The King of Pen is great for long term sessions but of the two styles I prefer the ProGear to the ProFit. The former is slightly shorter and seems just a hair more balanced during extended sessions.

    ProFit models on left, ProGear models on right. In each case the KoP model is the larger:


    A few other wider body pens. From top; Platinum Izumo, Sailor KoP, Nakaya Portable Writer, Danitrio Takumi and the Pilot 745 (same size as Pilot 823):




    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim View Post
    ... with a much higher volume of ink than a standard cartridge or converter or you will be swapping/refiling every page or 3. ...

    ... is everyone writing with a super wide and wet music nib or something to only last 3 or less pages?

    And far as hand fatigue goes, seems like lighter is better.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    My Problem: The 823 is too small. I get cramps in my hands after 30 minutes and this hurts a lot.

    So, I wanted to get a bigger pen, and I wanna get a Sailor KOP Profit. But I can't test it before I buy it, they are not available in Germany. I am searching for 5 days now, but no one says anything about if it is usable as a daily writer and for long writing sessions (8h+).

    I think you are looking for a fountain pen with bigger diameter at the section.

    Pilot 823's diameter at the section (min/max) is 10.2-11.2 mm (millimeters) [http://www.sbrebrown.com/2015/04/pil...in-pen-review].

    Sailor KOP's diameter at section (min/max) is 12.1-13 mm [https://www.thewritingdesk.co.uk/pen...old-trim.html].

    It would be good if you can hold the pen in your hand first to feel if it's comfortable and that you can write with it for hours. Of course the Sailor KOP can be used as daily writer.

    Other fountain pens with fatter section are:

    Lotus Shikhar (https://www.lotuspens.com) has a diameter section (min/max) of 12.5-13.2 mm. [http://www.sbrebrown.com/2018/07/lot...in-pen-review]

    Namiki Emperor Urushi Vermillion’s section’s diameter is 12.9 – 15.5 mm [http://www.sbrebrown.com/2017/03/nam...in-pen-review]

    The Namiki Emperor Urushi Vermillion is an expensive pen.

    Now, a bit off topic. Isn't it possible to screw off the piston part of the converter and screw on a test tube with several ml as a converter modification? Didn't find anything on that. Test tubes nowadays have screw caps (no glue or something like that necessary) and come in packages of 100s, would be quite useful...

    If you want to, you can cut off a piece of a converter and attach a fountain pen sac using shellac for fountain pen. Hopefully this link, http://stutler.cc/pens/converters/index.html, can be of any help.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by mulrich View Post
    I've never tried writing with a KOP for that long of a writing session but I've never had a problem in shorter sessions. The ink capacity thing will get old if you're refilling several times a day for the next year. Have you considered a Conid Kingsize? It's similar size as the KOP but has a massive ink capacity.
    I’ll second that recommendation. The Kingsize CONID has a large diameter section and huge capacity.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    [QUOTE=Daniel K;252664]
    Now, I know that it has just 0.6ml of ink, but I don't mind to refill it with my Pineider Refiller (...awesome tool...) several times per day (...so much fun...) and I will use cartridges during the exams anyways.

    The precise ink capacity of a Sailor KOP measured on a scale is: 0.95ml to 1ml once you expel the residual air bubble.
    If you wonder how this is, keep in mind that the nib and the feeder are huge.
    Pilot 823: 1.6 to 2.5ml
    Pelikan M1000: 2.03ml
    Montblanc 146:2.1ml

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by steelpanalley View Post

    Now, a bit off topic. Isn't it possible to screw off the piston part of the converter and screw on a test tube with several ml as a converter modification? Didn't find anything on that. Test tubes nowadays have screw caps (no glue or something like that necessary) and come in packages of 100s, would be quite useful...
    It's possible when you think about how the barrel seems to be one seamless piece, but I don't think it was designed with that in mind.

    On possible part of the pen I could see an issue with it not being possible is the area on the outside of the nipple where the converter connects. The tail of this nipple ends up inside of the converter which is pretty deep and pretty well sealed once it's inside of the converter. But the area in the outer circumference of the nipple/tail that goes up and around the feed housing is not likely sealed or air tight. (Platinum is a different story, but a lot of theirs don't have one seamless barrel without joints, with the exception of the expensive celluloid/urushi models).

    Your suggestion to modify a sailor converter by simply unscrewing the rear portion would be a good one if you threw on an extra length of silicone or latex sac, since you can just shellac it to the very end of the converter wouldn't have to 'cut' anything since the provided link is more for short pens. You would be able to double if not triple the capacity with the length of sac hanging off the end once you got a good measurement of how deep it can go in the barrel (just make sure it's got some room around it).

    Quote Originally Posted by davoud View Post
    The precise ink capacity of a Sailor KOP measured on a scale is: 0.95ml to 1ml once you expel the residual air bubble.
    If you wonder how this is, keep in mind that the nib and the feeder are huge.
    Pilot 823: 1.6 to 2.5ml
    Pelikan M1000: 2.03ml
    Montblanc 146:2.1ml
    The ink capacity for both the Montblanc 146 and 149 (modern) is 1.3~1.4ml similar to the Pelikan M1000 (1.5) M800/M600 (1.4), M200/M400 (1.2). My Vintage 1960s Montblanc 14 holds more at 1.6~1.7, and my vintage 1956 Pelikan 400NN at 1.9~2.0. What's left in the feed is at best 0.1~0.2ml, since those are not by any means huge collectors like you'd find in a Parker 51 Vac or Parker 75/45.
    Last edited by KBeezie; November 18th, 2018 at 04:28 AM.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Hello Daniel K,

    The Sailor King of Pen is a very comfortable & reliable fountain for extensive daily use. I nearly always have one filled on my desk, and spend at least 90 minutes a day writing. That is certainly far shorter than your writing schedule. Before retirement, I wrote 4 to 5 hours daily, and the KoP was comfortable for that length of time. I generally use cartridges in KoPs. My hands are not large.

    Another consideration is an older Montblanc 149, from 1990 or earlier, one with non-metal piston threads. Those are very similar to the KoP in size & weight with a far greater ink capacity.

    By the way, according to Anderson Pens (and Brian Anderson is a Sailor authority and serious KoP fan) the Pineder Snorkle filler does not fit Sailor converters.

    Good luck with your search and with your law studies & career. Best wishes, Barry

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Buy a scale, weight the pens empty then weigh them again when filled with ink, you will see that my indicated figures are trustworthy.
    M800 is 1.5 to 1.6ml , M400 and M600 are 1.65 to 1.75ml.
    I have two electronic scales. Despite being chinese they can't be both wrong.
    n.b. You get a better ink capacity when you fill/empty/refill again.
    A forced emptied pen has a capacity of about 0.2 to 0.4ml depending on the brand and the model, etc.. enough to write 5 A5 pages or 20 meters. Tried and observed with about 30 pens.
    Last edited by davoud; November 18th, 2018 at 08:40 AM.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    As much as I like fountain pens, I just cannot imagine wanting to screw around with a fountain pen during law finals.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by davoud View Post
    A forced emptied pen has a capacity of about 0.2 to 0.4ml depending on the brand and the model, etc.. enough to write 5 A5 pages or 20 meters.
    Something's going on if someone can only get 3 or less pages out then from a fill. (assuming that's 5 A5 pages with a specific nib size)

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    They key is "forced emptied." What about that reduces capacity? Is flushing involved? Drying? Are we talking lever/button, piston, or what?

    For comfort I would go with a thicker section. I have found my hand more likely to cramp with small sections of < 8mm diameter and I seem to do best with 9-10mm diameter.

    I seem to go many pages on a fill with all my pens because they are all fine, medium or dry flow.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Wow! Thanks a lot for all these recommendations.

    Last come, first serve:

    @FredRydr: I used a Lamy Safari in all my Law Exams so far and it worked fine, because it has the cartridge option (fast, easy and clean). For this reason, only a bulk filler or cartridges are an option for my exams. I just can't write with ball point / gel pens, I get extreme cramps after just a few minutes. Nice to see another law student/lawyer here

    @davoud & KBeezie: I surely will compare the weight of the pens in question, but I think weight is secondary compared to balance. My 823 is really light, but severely back heavy when capped and 100% filled. Pelikan or MontBlanc are not my taste, I think they are too boring...ehm, I mean classic. I know that the Pelikan nibs are smooth, but the looks are not my style. I once owned a Montblanc and I didn't know why it wrote so terrible, because I didn't know anything about pens. Today I know it had baby bottoms. That it got stolen later was maybe not the fault of the company...but I am done with them...

    @Barry B. Gabay: Man, I was almost sold on another pen, now the KOP is back in the game again. Honestly, I think, from what I know, that the KOP might be the most well balanced and thought through pen right now. Besides the well crafted nib, I think the annoyingly big metal part of the grip section serves to balance the pen.

    BTW, I was not talking about the Pineider snorkel filler, whatever that is. I was talking about this beauty:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=3M7HjIffNgQ

    I don't mean Brian Goulet, but the Pineider traveling inkwell. I would never have thought getting a piston or converter filler, because I am not willing to dip my pen into an inkwell in the library or even at home. Before the Pineider, it was either eyedropper or vacuum, because of their capacity, or cartridge. With this thing I can get 100% fillings in my 823 in a few seconds, because you fill it like a TWSBI with a TWSBI-Inkwell vertically with the inkwell on top. You can do this with all pens that fit. It came out in October and I predict that you will all buy one till the end of 2019, when the word has spread.

    @steelpanalley: Yes, a Namiki Emperor would be awesome. I certainly will get one, when I start working and have a bigger budget.

    @elim & Jar: Thanks for the pen recommendations. A vintage at that cost is an option to experiment a bit with it. I am looking for a vintage flex pen anyways, but this might become obsolete if I get a flagship pen, which often have a bit of flex anyways. The other models, esp. the Izumo or a Nakaya are interesting. (see below)


    OK, now, here are my final thoughts for my choice. I have a budget of about 500-600€ (600-700$).

    1. Perfect writing performance: smooth F/M nib, bit of flex and spring; slightly oversized grip section; long barrel or postable;
    2. Ink capacity: option to use cartridges during exams or large ink capacity; pineider compatible for the library
    3. Style: not too fancy, more understated, but high quality

    Options:

    1. Flagship pens: Sailor KOP, Pilot Custom Urushi, Platinum President

    The President seems not much bigger than the 823. Sadly, the Pilot costs 750€, the KOP Ebonite just 500€ on Ebay when imported. There are also not enough reviews on the Pilot.

    2. Luxury finishes: Well, the Izumo, the Nakayas and other in the range of 500€ (Ebay prices) look all very nice; but Japanese ppl tend to use those pens as gifts. Those big threads and all do not look comfortable, nor do those pens look like daily writers.

    I guess I try out the KOP Ebonite. For 500€ I can sell it at any time on Ebay again.

    Guys, thank you for your input. I will write a last update, to let you know if the pen solved my problems. In case I am successful with a converter modification, I will let you know.

    Bye!
    Last edited by Daniel K; November 18th, 2018 at 06:09 PM.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel K View Post
    @davoud & KBeezie: I surely will compare the weight of the pens in question, but I think weight is secondary compared to balance. My 823 is really light, but severely back heavy when capped and 100% filled. Pelikan or MontBlanc are not my taste, I think they are too boring...ehm, I mean classic. I know that the Pelikan nibs are smooth, but the looks are not my style. I once owned a Montblanc and I didn't know why it wrote so terrible, because I didn't know anything about pens. Today I know it had baby bottoms. That it got stolen later was maybe not the fault of the company...but I am done with them...
    This is pretty much the same feeling I have with 99% of the modern Pelikans and Montblanc now days, Especially after the 1980s models, their nibs (and sometimes the pens themselves) in comparison to the vintages I've tried, are just 'boring' to use. The only modern Pelikan I have is the M640 Mount Everest Special edition, and I mainly like that for two reasons : The body feels nice in my hands as it is pleasing to the eye, and the nib was tuned by Mottishaw from the previous owner. The other in the line up (M200,M400,M600,M800), generally speaking are just boring to me, similar when I had a 1990s+ Montblanc 146, nice pen body but nib was boring. (plus most of the vintage models, don't look like the desirable modern ones with the big price tags, and are actually quite a bit cheaper in most cases).
    Last edited by KBeezie; November 18th, 2018 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel K View Post

    OK, now, here are my final thoughts for my choice. I have a budget of about 500-600€ (600-700$).

    1. Perfect writing performance: smooth F/M nib, bit of flex and spring; slightly oversized grip section; long barrel or postable;
    2. Ink capacity: option to use cartridges during exams or large ink capacity; pineider compatible for the library
    3. Style: not too fancy, more understated, but high quality

    Options:

    1. Flagship pens: Sailor KOP, Pilot Custom Urushi, Platinum President

    The President seems not much bigger than the 823. Sadly, the Pilot costs 750€, the KOP Ebonite just 500€ on Ebay when imported. There are also not enough reviews on the Pilot.

    2. Luxury finishes: Well, the Izumo, the Nakayas and other in the range of 500€ (Ebay prices) look all very nice; but Japanese ppl tend to use those pens as gifts. Those big threads and all do not look comfortable, nor do those pens look like daily writers.

    I guess I try out the KOP Ebonite. For 500€ I can sell it at any time on Ebay again.

    Guys, thank you for your input. I will write a last update, to let you know if the pen solved my problems. In case I am successful with a converter modification, I will let you know.

    Bye!
    I have both a KoP and an Izumo. I never find myself writing for 8-hours with either, but it’s not uncommon for me to spend a couple of hours at a stretch writing. Based on that experience I would choose the Izumo every time.

    The Izumo has a fairly firm nib, especially compared to the KoP, but the KoP (mine at least) is a VERY juicy writer. I burn through ink on that pen.

    The Izumo, despite being ebonite, is a much heavier (feeling, at least) pen which, for me, makes it a more comfortable writer. Along with that is its balance. The KoP (in my case a Pro Gear) is well balanced, but the Izumo is better still.

    The cap threads on the Izumo’s section do not get in the way at all. That’s coming from someone who holds his pens higher on the section. I will say, however, that as large as the Izumo is overall, the section is noticeably narrower than the KoP.

    Overall, both pens are favorites of mine, but the Izumo is one of the most—if not THE most—comfortable pen I own for long writing sections.

    Good luck with your final year of law school! I pretty much checked-out during my 3L year.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: King of pen (KOP) as daily writer and ink capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    They key is "forced emptied." What about that reduces capacity? Is flushing involved? Drying? Are we talking lever/button, piston, or what?

    For comfort I would go with a thicker section. I have found my hand more likely to cramp with small sections of < 8mm diameter and I seem to do best with 9-10mm diameter.

    I seem to go many pages on a fill with all my pens because they are all fine, medium or dry flow.
    0.3ml king of pen, 0.4ml (Pelikan M805). No flushing only evacuation by turning the piston or the converter knob.

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