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Thread: Trouble with inks?

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    Default Trouble with inks?

    Hello folks, here's a thread suggested on a different, more ink-specific review thread that kind of derailed into a mix of accusatory rhetoric and some blaming of various inks (in this case manufactured by Diamine) for causing troubles ranging from staining to clogging. https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...957#post228957
    It has been my experience that most inks will over time undergo some chemical changes, thus forming deposits, sludges, or undergoing color changes. I've had this experience with inks of at least five brands. Many highly saturated or dye-based or nano-pigmented inks will leave stains in or on transparent or opaque materials - again, this happens with the inks of a variety of makers and sorts itself out by ink/dye/pigment category rather than by origin.
    So rather than blaming one manufacturer for our woes, or worse, clobbering an afficionado of one ink for spreading misinformation, maybe we should share our bad experiences with individual inks and/or remedies for these troubles in a new thread. What do you think?
    Last edited by inklord; January 8th, 2018 at 04:36 PM. Reason: added link to thread mentioned

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    I'm with you to a certain point. However, I *firmly* believe that people need to discuss EXACT PARTICULAR INKS, not a brand. Even within brands that have many problematic inks, there are also safe and useable products. And, occasionally, there may be a brand that makes what seem to be completely trouble-free products but one or two may exhibit issues. Those should be noted as well, but with specificity, not slamming an entire line.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by inklord View Post
    Hello folks, here's a thread suggested on a different, more ink-specific review thread that kind of derailed into a mix of accusatory rhetoric and some blaming of various inks (in this case manufactured by Diamine) for causing troubles ranging from staining to clogging.
    It has been my experience that most inks will over time undergo some chemical changes, thus forming deposits, sludges, or undergoing color changes. I've had this experience with inks of at least five brands. Many highly saturated or dye-based or nano-pigmented inks will leave stains in or on transparent or opaque materials - again, this happens with the inks of a variety of makers and sorts itself out by ink/dye/pigment category rather than by origin.
    So rather than blaming one manufacturer for our woes, or worse, clobbering an afficionado of one ink for spreading misinformation, maybe we should share our bad experiences with individual inks and/or remedies for these troubles in a new thread. What do you think?
    “Accusatory rhetoric........”?
    My initial post was specifically regarding the ink being reviewed, which had, in fact, caused staining, in my experience, as opposed to the reviewer’s experience, where it hadn’t. Both experiences are valid, I’m sure, and both is useful information to readers, and enables them to consider alternative experiences. It also seemed entirely appropriate to that particular thread, and not some general ink review thread. Now I notice my post has been removed, yet it wasn’t rude or personal in any way. How does this help to present a balanced view about the ink? Why do you believe it to be “accusatory rhetoric”?

    My last post in the thread, in response to a question I was directly asked, represents my personal opinion about the Diamine brand in general, and reflects Jon Szanto’s post here.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    It was the other person in the thread...
    Quote Originally Posted by migo984 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by inklord View Post
    Hello folks, here's a thread suggested on a different, more ink-specific review thread that kind of derailed into a mix of accusatory rhetoric and some blaming of various inks (in this case manufactured by Diamine) for causing troubles ranging from staining to clogging.
    It has been my experience that most inks will over time undergo some chemical changes, thus forming deposits, sludges, or undergoing color changes. I've had this experience with inks of at least five brands. Many highly saturated or dye-based or nano-pigmented inks will leave stains in or on transparent or opaque materials - again, this happens with the inks of a variety of makers and sorts itself out by ink/dye/pigment category rather than by origin.
    So rather than blaming one manufacturer for our woes, or worse, clobbering an afficionado of one ink for spreading misinformation, maybe we should share our bad experiences with individual inks and/or remedies for these troubles in a new thread. What do you think?
    “Accusatory rhetoric........”?
    My initial post was specifically regarding the ink being reviewed, which had, in fact, caused staining, in my experience, as opposed to the reviewer’s experience, where it hadn’t. Both experiences are valid, I’m sure, and both is useful information to readers, and enables them to consider alternative experiences. It also seemed entirely appropriate to that particular thread, and not some general ink review thread. Now I notice my post has been removed, yet it wasn’t rude or personal in any way. How does this help to present a balanced view about the ink? Why do you believe it to be “accusatory rhetoric”?

    My last post in the thread, in response to a question I was directly asked, represents my personal opinion about the Diamine brand in general, and reflects Jon Szanto’s post here.
    "Love is the final fight."

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfo View Post
    It was the other person in the thread...
    I get that, but why has my post, offering a (polite) valid alternative viewpoint to the reviewer, been removed? In my opinion the review has now been whitewashed (pun intended).

    Edit to add:
    ps. I point towards the Benjamin Franklin quote in Jon Szanto’s signature line.
    Last edited by migo984; January 7th, 2018 at 08:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Diamine-Sargasso Sea will stain my converter and nib. Eventually it goes away. I love it and I'm going to continue to use it.

    Sailor-Kiwa guro clogged one pen. I continue to use it because this was a fluke. Now that I don't leave it in my pen as long, it hasn't been an issue with any pen.

    J. Herbin-Emerald of Chivor partially clogged a pen. Now I know how to deal with keeping that from happening again, it hasn't been an issue.

    Diamine-Majestic Blue Love the color, but it clogs.

    Akkerman-Shocking Blue Love the color, but it clogs.

    I am not buying the last two, because of the clogging issue. I know people have it and love it. I can deal with one that clogs after being in the pen for a couple of weeks or more. I cannot deal with an ink that clogs on the first day. Even persistent hard starts after I ink a pen, is a no go for me. (especially on the FIRST DAY of inking)
    Last edited by KKay; January 7th, 2018 at 09:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    My bad experience is J. Herbin Violette Pensee. I found that my P51 vac. was not flling and the plunger didn't retract all of the way. I took the pen apart and found the diaphragm soft and kind of ‘gooy’, clearly the diaphragm failed. The pen had been recently rebuilt. BTW, I really like the color.
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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    An aside that does not involve inks:

    On some days I can deal with just about anything. This is not one of those days. The business of referring to threads without actually naming them or providing a link, and then referring to commenters without actually naming them or linking to a post in question, is really, really lame.

    Just in this short thread - the one we are in - one can see evidence of confusion. If you care enough to call out threads or posters, you need to have the backbone to be specific. Otherwise we all end up filling in the blanks on our side of the screen and things can get messy, needlessly messy. Not to mention that innocent bystanders get hit with collateral damage.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; January 7th, 2018 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Typos and removal of weak suspicions...
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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    The thread was cleaned up by the moderator. Sorry I cannot remember the user's name and his/her's posts have been deleted along with my responses.

    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...iamine-Scarlet

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    An aside that does not involve inks:

    On some days I can deal with just about anything. This is not one of those days. The business of referring to threads without actually naming them or providing a link, and then referring to commenters without actually naming them or linking to a post in question, is really, really lame.

    Just in this short thread - the one we are in - one can see evidence of confusion. If you care enough to call out threads or posters, you need to have the backbone to be specific. Otherwise we all end up filling in the blanks on our side of the screen and things can get messy, needlessly messy. Not to mention that innocent bystanders get hit with collateral damage.
    In regard to trouble with inks, I had some problems with Noodler's Texas Black Bat and Alamo Twilight forming gunk in the bottle and a funky smell after a half year of ownership. It could be caused by either user or manufacturer error, but I do flush and rinse pens before refilling them.
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    Last edited by dfo; January 8th, 2018 at 12:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    I feel we should be able to focus on "good" as well as "bad" inks. Maybe I'm in "glass half full, rather than half empty" mode today?

    Some particular inks clog some pens: that's a given, but they don't clog all pens. I'm not going to say that a particular ink always causes problems, let alone all of any particular manufacturer's ink always cause problems. But I'm happy to name some examples I've had my own experiences with.

    I mentioned Parker Penman Sapphire as an example. A revered, if not a grail ink for some. I have a Parker 45 Coronet that I decided to set aside for PPS. They used to play nicely together, but recently they don't. The pen never starts, yet the converter is full. So I dip it in water, and sure, it springs to life. For a few words. Then it dies again. I've taken it apart and cleaned it out, then replaced the converter. But no. They seem to have broken their friendship. I'm going to put the ink into a cartridge next, and see if there is a difference. Otherwise I'm going to try PPS in a different pen.

    On the other side of the coin, my Montblanc Woolf absolutely loves Diamine Burgundy Royale. They just both clicked together from day 1. Perfect wetness, smoothness, and lubrication, and never a problem between them. Great compatibility. I've been keeping them together in an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mode.
    Last edited by Chrissy; January 8th, 2018 at 04:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    I would be interested in knowing why certain inks stain and others do not.

    I thought that it might be due to PH levels or saturation or even evaporation within the pen/cartridge or bottle leaving ink solids to clog and/or stain or form a deposit in the bottle.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    I would be interested in knowing why certain inks stain and others do not.

    I thought that it might be due to PH levels or saturation or even evaporation within the pen/cartridge or bottle leaving ink solids to clog and/or stain or form a deposit in the bottle.
    I've never seen any ink solids from a dye based ink, that have formed a deposit in a bottle. Certainly ink can lose water due to evaporation in a pen, in a cartridge, or in a bottle. That changes the original composition of the ink, so it could make it more likely to stain. If it started life as a pigment or Iron Gall based ink, then I suppose it could be more likely to clog too.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    I'm with you to a certain point. However, I *firmly* believe that people need to discuss EXACT PARTICULAR INKS, not a brand. Even within brands that have many problematic inks, there are also safe and useable products. And, occasionally, there may be a brand that makes what seem to be completely trouble-free products but one or two may exhibit issues. Those should be noted as well, but with specificity, not slamming an entire line.
    ... that's exactly what I'm aiming at!

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    An aside that does not involve inks:

    On some days I can deal with just about anything. This is not one of those days. The business of referring to threads without actually naming them or providing a link, and then referring to commenters without actually naming them or linking to a post in question, is really, really lame.

    Just in this short thread - the one we are in - one can see evidence of confusion. If you care enough to call out threads or posters, you need to have the backbone to be specific. Otherwise we all end up filling in the blanks on our side of the screen and things can get messy, needlessly messy. Not to mention that innocent bystanders get hit with collateral damage.
    Sorry for my omission. I added the link, but apparently the thread has been cleaned up. Maybe I should not have mentioned the thread in question. I apologize if this was unhelpful.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by KKay View Post
    J. Herbin-Emerald of Chivor partially clogged a pen. Now I know how to deal with keeping that from happening again, it hasn't been an issue.
    Do tell? I have a sample viral waiting to be inked, but this has given me pause...

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    I like to use some inks with gold or silver particles, but just to be absolutely safe I tend to use them in pens that I know I can easily clean out. Some of these inks also tend to flow better in pens with medium and broad nibs. I used E of C in a Pilot Custom 74 with M nib. They played very well together. Memorably so, as it's been a long time since I used that ink, but I still remember how good that combination was.

    I almost feel like changing a well known Harry Potter quote in order to make it apply to inks: "The ink chooses the pen Harry."
    Last edited by Chrissy; January 8th, 2018 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    For starters I had it in a F nib pen. That was the wrong nib entirely. Now I like to use it in a wet medium, or broader nib. (western M or Japanese broad) Next now and then when you're writing, turn the pen a little agitate the particles so gravity doesn't pull them all into your feed, when you write. Tap all around the feed with nib up after you cap the pen. The ink just looks so cool on Tomoe River paper, I have to go to the extra effort so I can use this ink. It is superb looking in my opinion. I really like to use this ink in a demonstrator pen so I can see the ink in the feed. Sometimes I see the particles bunch up, and that is when I tap on it harder. Since I've been agitating the ink some, I really don't have that problem. EOC works very good in a Platinum 3776 B nib pen. Putting this ink in a pen that is easy to take apart and clean is an even better idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShugPug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KKay View Post
    J. Herbin-Emerald of Chivor partially clogged a pen. Now I know how to deal with keeping that from happening again, it hasn't been an issue.
    Do tell? I have a sample viral waiting to be inked, but this has given me pause...

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by KKay View Post
    For starters I had it in a F nib pen. That was the wrong nib entirely. Now I like to use it in a wet medium, or broader nib. (western M or Japanese broad) Next now and then when you're writing, turn the pen a little agitate the particles so gravity doesn't pull them all into your feed, when you write. Tap all around the feed with nib up after you cap the pen. The ink just looks so cool on Tomoe River paper, I have to go to the extra effort so I can use this ink. It is superb looking in my opinion. I really like to use this ink in a demonstrator pen so I can see the ink in the feed. Sometimes I see the particles bunch up, and that is when I tap on it harder. Since I've been agitating the ink some, I really don't have that problem. EOC works very good in a Platinum 3776 B nib pen. Putting this ink in a pen that is easy to take apart and clean is an even better idea.
    My Pilot Custom 74 is a demonstrator pen, and even though the ink is inside the converter, you can still see it from the outside. I've found that these pens tend to work better, with shimmer particles spread throughout the ink, if I lie them down horizontally when I'm not using them. Rather than standing them upright in my pen pot.
    I always used to give the pens an occasional shake to ensure particles weren't all inside the feed while writing, but the most recent inks seem to be wetter and I've found I don't really need to worry about doing that anymore.

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by KKay View Post
    For starters I had it in a F nib pen. That was the wrong nib entirely. Now I like to use it in a wet medium, or broader nib. (western M or Japanese broad) Next now and then when you're writing, turn the pen a little agitate the particles so gravity doesn't pull them all into your feed, when you write. Tap all around the feed with nib up after you cap the pen. The ink just looks so cool on Tomoe River paper, I have to go to the extra effort so I can use this ink. It is superb looking in my opinion. I really like to use this ink in a demonstrator pen so I can see the ink in the feed. Sometimes I see the particles bunch up, and that is when I tap on it harder. Since I've been agitating the ink some, I really don't have that problem. EOC works very good in a Platinum 3776 B nib pen. Putting this ink in a pen that is easy to take apart and clean is an even better idea.
    Thanks! I've got Stormy Grey in an F TWISBI Eco at the minute and am really enjoying it. But definitely being a little more careful than usual with "agitating" it as I can see the particles stuck on the piston initially...

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    Default Re: Trouble with inks?

    Chrissy I don't have a Custom 74. The only Pilot I have is a Prera. The Platinum 3776 B is a clear demonstrator, and I can see the feed. I'm pretty sure I put this ink in a Noodler's Konrad with no issues as well. Whatever I put it in, it likes a wetter pen. I've had this ink quite a while, so it may not be as fine of particles as they possibly make today. I'm not sure about that. I like it so much I have a back up bottle. The EOC in a wet pen on Tomoe River paper is pure magic. I love it.

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