German nibs vs Japanese nibs

[calamus]

My first few "better" fountain pens were all Japanese, and I was enormously pleased with them as writers. I thought they were much better than other types of nibs I'd used -- and I'd owned and used English nibs, Frence nibs, US nibs and Chinese nibs. However, I'd never used a German nib, or an Italian one for that matter.

HOWEVER, a few days ago, I tried a Lamy Safari and then the next day a Nemosine Singularity. I was blown away by how good both nibs were, and how smoothly they wrote. I've still not tried a Pelikan or a Montblanc, but I'm guessing they're even better.

So now I'm thinking that German nibs are probably every bit as good as Japanese nibs, and might even be better. After all, German engineering is legendary. (And for that matter I don't doubt that there are English and French nibs much better than those I've thusfar used that might be right up there too, but I don't want this discussion to go off the rails before it's even begun, so let's leave French and English nibs for another time.)

(And how does one define "better nib?" No doubt that will be addressed.)

I'd be interested to hear people discuss their views about Japanese and German nibs -- similarities, differences, preferences for one or the other, etc.

Thanks!

[Chrissy]

I was sceptical about writing with a Lamy untipped steel nib for quite a long time, but as soon as I wrote with my first Lamy Nexx, I thought how smooth it felt. Not at all scratchy. Those nibs and my Montblanc gold nibs all feel nicely firm when I write with them.

I don't have many Japanese nibs, and both of them are gold; one Pilot Custom 74 that has a really smooth medium nib, and writes almost as firmly as my German nibs, and a Pilot VP with medium nib that also feels smooth and firm.

The only difference I've found has been with Japanese fine nibs versus German fine nibs. My German fine nibs still feel just as smooth as my medium nibs, but for me Japanese fine nibs start to feel scratchy and unbalanced because they are significantly narrower at their tips. I have a spare Pilot VP fine nib that can be swapped into my VP, but having tried it once, I decided I don't like it at all, so it never gets used. It's exactly the same as my Pilot CH 92. I never write with it because of it's fine nib.

[inklord]

...its all very complicated - and variable! after having long-term experience with some 50 or so nibs, i found that there are probably duds in every brand's offering - however, these are rarely "incorrigible". almost any nib can be smoothed to satisfaction (or given a bit of extra "tooth", as i once had to do for my daughter's LAMY CP1 - she doesn't care for glassy smooth nibs).
i've written with both good and so-so nibs from Pelikan, LAMY, Montblanc, TWSBI; all my nibs but one from Franklin-Christoph (they use modified and factory JoWo nibs) were out-of-this-world fantastic, and my worst desaster nibs were all from the very reputable brands Sailor and Pilot (scratchy, dry as a desert and in one case (Sailor ProGear) overly wet and still scratchy) but once reground and adjusted for flow, they ranked among the best...
being german, and loving my LAMY pens, i'd always be ready to break a lance for those german pens, but, again it's a mixed bag: the more you try out, the more variation you'll probably find... enjoy the ride!
p.s.: one pen that many have found to have a "difficult" nib has never disappointed me (and I use 5 of those!): the LAMY 2000 - but again, one man's poison is another man's cake!

[michaeldoleman]

Interesting question. As a relative newcomer to the fountain pen world, I'll give you my initial impressions, with respect to the acquisitions and comparisons I've made.

I had been initially drawn to the aesthetics of Kaweco pens, and got a Liliput as my first. I liked the way it felt and wrote, but wanted to branch-out. My next acquisitions were of a couple Lamy Safaris, in fine and extra fine. I liked each of those quite a bit, and thought that I had found "my pen." Then, however, I decided to try a Pilot Metropolitan, and that pen shifted my whole view. I absolutely loved the truly fine line quality -- it is a much better fit with my decidedly slow and deliberate writing style. It seems much easier to get a uniform line quality out of the Metro than the Lamys or Kawecos.

I wanted to give a higher-end pen a try, and for that -- after getting a chance to demo one -- I landed on a Pilot Custom 74, with 14k gold nib, in F. My experience thus far, with that pen, is that it is basically perfect in every possible way. I adore it. It's pure joy and contentment, to use. And this is coming from someone who struggled, a bit, with the more traditional/classic styling of the pen (I tend to prefer a more modern, streamlined, minimalist style). Maybe it's placebo effect, but I feel that I have greater control over the ink flow and line thickness than I do with the Kawecos or Lamys. Admittedly, this is not really a fair comparison, since we're talking about a $100 pen versus $20 to $50 dollar pens, with totally different nib styles. That said, though, I don't think Lamy is a brand I will spend a lot of time with, despite seemingly everyone's opinion that the 2000 is "the" high-end pen to have. I'm basing this on the fact that the EF nib on my Lamy Safari isn't even close to the fineness of the F on my Metro or 74. I'd honestly rate it as much closer to a Pilot M or even broad nib. For my writing style and preferences, it's a non-starter. Thus, for now, I am a strong Pilot supporter.

But this in no way means that I'm giving-up on, or disparaging the quality of Euro pens or nibs. I think that I simply have not tried the right makers. Based on what I've heard, and also by looking at the "Nib Nook" over at Goulet Pens, I'm guessing I would like a Bock nib or a Faber-Castell. I intend to give both a try, at some point.

Another European pen that I have tried in person is a Caran d'Ache 849 in an EF and -- I have to say -- my initial impression was that I loved the way it wrote. It produced an amazingly fine and consistent line with great ease. Very comfortable to hold, also, and a great-looking pen, IMO.

One other point that I think is very worthwhile to make here: of all the brands I am now familiar with (which is to say: not many), I am incredibly impressed with the quality of Pilot nibs in even their lowliest, bargain-priced models. As far as I can tell, my $8 Kakuno produces results that are indistinguishable from my $100 Custom 74. It's like an embarrassment of riches, in a way -- an overt and unnecessary luxury. I'll say for it that the writing experience IS marginally different between those pens, however. The 74 is a little less scratchy, and it is far easier to vary the line thickness. But aside from that, I see absolutely no reason a person couldn't be 100% satisfied with the cheapest Pilot pens.

Additionally, I have noticed that the line quality between my Pilot pens (I have 5 in total) is dead-solid consistent -- each nib writes exactly as expected, every time. This is certainly not the case with my Kawecos -- each one, even within the same style and nib width, writes with an entirely different character -- there is zero consistency, as far as I can tell. My experience is pretty narrow, so I'm not offering these observations as anything conclusive, but for someone starting-out (like me), perhaps it's useful as food for thought.

I think the bottom line is that the concept of "quality" is rather elusive when it comes to fountain pens. There are so many variables that enter the picture, and so many possibilities in terms of the ways people write, and their particular predilections. I, myself, have very quickly established myself as a Pilot fan, but know enough about myself to not get stuck there. I will branch-out and try some more European pens. I think that anyone who loves the hobby would be well-served to do the same -- i.e., not get stuck on the "versus" question, but -- rather -- be open to trying new things and altering opinions.

[carlos.q]

This is a very common debate. IMO this is like comparing colors or apples and oranges. There is no "better" there is only difference, and a very personal preference that will probably change during time.

[calamus]

This is a very common debate. IMO this is like comparing colors or apples and oranges. There is no "better" there is only difference, and a very personal preference that will probably change during time.

I'm not so much interested in declaring a winner in a contest between the two as I am in exploring the differences. I know that Japanese sizes run finer, for example, and that between brands from the same country there are differences in size. That's pretty common knowledge.

One reason that I hadn't paid much attention to German nibs until now is that I've heard so many people say that the quality of Montblanc and Pelikan has gone downhill, and that you need to buy a vintage one to get the legendary quality. Would anyone care to address that?

[AzJon]

This is a very common debate. IMO this is like comparing colors or apples and oranges. There is no "better" there is only difference, and a very personal preference that will probably change during time.

I'm not so much interested in declaring a winner in a contest between the two as I am in exploring the differences. I know that Japanese sizes run finer, for example, and that between brands from the same country there are differences in size. That's pretty common knowledge.

One reason that I hadn't paid much attention to German nibs until now is that I've heard so many people say that the quality of Montblanc and Pelikan has gone downhill, and that you need to buy a vintage one to get the legendary quality. Would anyone care to address that?

I have used many Pelikan nibs, vintage and modern, and really it, as always, comes down to preference. The vintage nibs are very nice. They write well, are generally very wet, and are flexible more often than not (I have never had a vintage Pelikan "nail"). Most of the modern ones have a little cushion, but it depends on the size. The modern M200 steel nibs are actually extremely well made and nice to use steel nibs, in my opinion. They have a lovely line variation to them that, in my opinion, is not far off from what is offered a la Noodler's Flex nib. Just wonderful. The modern gold nibs are functional. Some have more spring, some have less. They are wet writers and broader than their Asian counterparts (part the tipping width and part the wetness, I believe).

When it comes to Montblanc, my 80s 146 has a great nib. Not as springy as the Pelikan, but a pleasant to use nib that was made for hard work. I do not own, but was at a MB boutique (Chicago airport) and got to chatting with the store rep who insisted I try every tester pen they have. What is really nice, IMO, is that they have a wide range of stock nibs including double-broad and oblique nibs from medium up to triple broad. That said, their broad and double broad have a very stub-like quality to them that I find appealing. Makes me really wish Pelikan still offered stock nibs in different grinds, but alas.

[carlos.q]

One reason that I hadn't paid much attention to German nibs until now is that I've heard so many people say that the quality of Montblanc and Pelikan has gone downhill, and that you need to buy a vintage one to get the legendary quality. Would anyone care to address that?

This is a common misconception. Quality has not gone downhill but rather nib design has adapted to newer generations that have grown up using ballpoints and are "ballpoint barbarians" as Bo Bo Olsen would say. The modern nibs are generally rounder, like a ballpoint (or "Kugel") in vintage speak and have no flex at all. Thus, in general terms, new MB and Pelikan pens will have round nibs and no flex, which is absolutely fine if your primary use is rapid note taking. This is useful for a great deal of users that need a reliable writing instrument and have no need for fancy flourishes. However if you write very slowly and deliberately you will probable enjoy a flexible vintage nib a lot more. And vintage Pelikan and MB nibs excel in this respect.

In my experience there are three modern pens that do not conform to this "ballpoint/no flex" rule (there must be more): Pelikan M200/205 (that has a softer steel nib), the Pelikan M1000 (that has a large flexier gold nib) and Lamy 2000 that has a chiseled or squared off nib that have some people complaining about it's sweet spot. I have read that modern MB B and BB nibs are stub like but I haven't tried one of those.

[inklord]

This is a very common debate. IMO this is like comparing colors or apples and oranges. There is no "better" there is only difference, and a very personal preference that will probably change during time.

... you hit that nail with a hammer...

[calamus]

I've also heard people complain about the resin in newer MBs and Pelikans, that it doesn't hold up as well as the resin in older models. Also clips coming off caps and that sort of thing. All anecdotal, of course, and "everybody" knows that "they don't make 'em like they used to," but anyway, I hear so much of that sort of thing that I'm almost afraid to drop $100 for an M200 or 205 on Massdrop. Am I being ridiculous? (Actually, I'm more concerned about what my wife might do to me, but there are always birthdays and Christmas.)

[Chrissy]

I've never had such a problem with any modern Montblancs, but I look after my pens.

[carlos.q]

I've also heard people complain about the resin in newer MBs and Pelikans, that it doesn't hold up as well as the resin in older models. Also clips coming off caps and that sort of thing. All anecdotal, of course, and "everybody" knows that "they don't make 'em like they used to," but anyway, I hear so much of that sort of thing that I'm almost afraid to drop $100 for an M200 or 205 on Massdrop. Am I being ridiculous? (Actually, I'm more concerned about what my wife might do to me, but there are always birthdays and Christmas.)

I don't think you are being ridiculous just overly cautious. There are some things you just have to try out to arrive at your own concluisions. If you can't attend a pen show (like me) maybe you just have to take the plunge.

Having said that there is a big difference between Pelikan and MB as there are no low cost entry level MB pens. OTOH Massdrop has a M205 demonstrator for $95.00 with free US shipping which is a pretty good deal.

[azkid]

I've been lucky with one Japanese brand and u lucky with one German brand in my statistically insignificant sampling. The EF nibs on my Safaris are pretty darn nice. One had to be smoothed just a little.

My Metro and Stargazer nibs are all great too.

My only other German pens are two Montblanc 221s whose nibs are superb: springy, just the right amount and kind of feedback, subtle line variation. They are both EFs and came from Japan and are approximately similar in line width to Metro fine.

I have tried a few German pens at pen posse gatherings but the one that really sticks out, that I still distinctly remember, was a Pelikan M600 in Turquoise/white. Soooo pleasant and smooth to write with! I doubt I will ever be able to justify the cost to myself. But I do plan to pick up one of their lower end models to see how I like them. I would be surprised if a $100-200 was poorly spent on a Massdrop Pelikan

[calamus]

I've also heard people complain about the resin in newer MBs and Pelikans, that it doesn't hold up as well as the resin in older models. Also clips coming off caps and that sort of thing. All anecdotal, of course, and "everybody" knows that "they don't make 'em like they used to," but anyway, I hear so much of that sort of thing that I'm almost afraid to drop $100 for an M200 or 205 on Massdrop. Am I being ridiculous? (Actually, I'm more concerned about what my wife might do to me, but there are always birthdays and Christmas.)

I don't think you are being ridiculous just overly cautious. There are some things you just have to try out to arrive at your own concluisions. If you can't attend a pen show (like me) maybe you just have to take the plunge.

Having said that there is a big difference between Pelikan and MB as there are no low cost entry level MB pens. OTOH Massdrop has a M205 demonstrator for $95.00 with free US shipping which is a pretty good deal.

I saw it. they also had a dark brown translucent 200 for $110 last week. I have been sore tempted, but I spend too damn much on pens already.

[carlos.q]

I have been sore tempted, but I spend too damn much on pens already.

Don't we all?