De Atramentis Document Ink

[calamus]

Sorry for the extended backstory, which follows, but I'd like to establish the context and I'm thinking it will add to the interest of the tale. Please try to bear with me.

Of late I've developed a desire to acquire a gray ink, a color that I've never owned. Gray gouache, yes, but not fountain pen ink. I decided to see if I could find what I considered the perfect gray fountain pen ink. It should look distinguished and attractive, not too dark and not too light, it should be well-behaved, should exhibit nice shading, and since it's going to be perfect it should also have good water resistance -- hell, might as well make it waterproof, lightproof, and fraudproof. And be reasonably priced (I mean, we're talking perfect). Also, it would need to be dye-based, since I am highly paranoid about using pigmented inks in my fountain pens, worrying that it will clog them unless I dump out the ink after a short while and flush exhaustively, then toss into the ultrasonic for good measure. If it were going to be a frauudproof ink, then I would want to use it to sign important documents, so I would want to use it in one of my nicer pens, and I don't think I could bring myself to put a pigmented ink into one of them.

So, I started looking around and going to websites of dealers who carried a large number of inks, and started applying filters. Pretty soon the inks that met the filterable critieria dwindled down to a precious few. And that's when I discovered a curious phenomenon. According to Goulet Pens, De Atramentis Document Gray was dye-based, but according to Jet Pens, it was pigmented. Very odd.

I sought clarity by emailing De Atramentis in Germany. I received a reply from a gentleman named Franz-Josef Jansen.
He replied "our document inks contain nano-dyes."
So I expressed my ignorance and asked him to please explain what nano-dyes were. He replied, "it is a nanosuspension of a particulate dye."
That sounded a lot like a pigment to me, so I looked up dye and pigment in the online OED.

Dye: "A natural or synthetic substance used to add a colour to or change the colour of something."
So apparently, a dye doesn't necessarily have to be water soluble.

Pigment: "A substance used for colouring or painting, especially a dry powder, which when mixed with oil, water, or another medium constitutes a paint or ink."
Huh. The terms seem almost interchangable, at least under certain circumstances.

As I understand dye vs pigment when applied to fountain pen inks, dyes are solutions and pigmented inks are suspensions. So in that case, it seems to me that De Atramentis document inks are closer to pigmented than dyed, although a nanosuspension isn't the same beast as, say a glitter ink. But do I dare put it into an expensive fountain pen and leave it in there for longer than a few hours? Any input from anyone initiated into the higher mysteries of inky goodness would be highly appreciated. (Help Chrissy!)

Edited March 15: Turns out that Herr Jansen IS De Atramentis inks -- he is the fellow who formulates all their inks, and I would imagine is also the owner of the company. And he personally answers emails. Wow!

[Jon Szanto]

I'll just do an aside:

I wanted one pen and one ink that I could use for a specific purpose all the time: writing postcards. I needed a small tip on the nib (to cram in lots of useless trivia about my life to friends) and an ink that was completely waterproof, since it could easily get exposed to the elements on the way. I'm left-handed and don't particularly like fine nibs, but a few years ago ended up with an EF Sailor Pro Gear that, frankly, I just adore. I know no other nib that fine that I can write with so smoothly. While I had a number of black inks that I used regularly, they weren't waterproof. I used Noodler's Black for a while, but I found that if it was in the pen too long, evaporation caused it to thicken and then it was a smear/smudge-fest. I had to keep looking.

And then I found Sailor Kiwa-guro. Pigmented. Bombproof. Flowed well in that teeny nib.

So this ink has been in use in a very narrow nib, constantly filled, always ready, usually one of the 3 pens in my EDC case, and probably only flushed after maybe 2-3 refills of the converter. Might be weeks or months. Never a clog. Never any issues. None. For me, flawless performance.

So, yeah. Everyone says they are a hassle. I've got plenty of experience with inks that are a PITA. This is not one of them, and it has been this way for at least 3 years. Just take that for your consideration. I honestly believe pens are more robust than people give them credit for, and I take good care of my pens. I also allow for the possibility that some of this stuff is overblown.

[Chrissy]

My understanding was that De Atramentis Document inks are pigmented inks. "Nano-pigmented" is just another way of saying smaller pigment particles. The reason I always believed that De A Document inks are pigmented is because they supply a bottle of liquid to "thin" the ink, and say that water can't be used for that job. That puts me off a bit, because it makes me wonder what happens when you clean out the pens with....water?

I've never used De A pigment based inks, but I recently reviewed both of the Sailor Blue-Black inks Seiboku and Souboku. I know that Seiboku is nano-pigmented, and assume Souboku is too but they are made differently. I'm also currently reviewing R&K sketchINKS, and they are pigmented inks. I don't tend to use them in expensive pens, and I usually clean them out after I've reviewed the inks. They are filled for several days as opposed to several hours, but they still clean out quite easily with warm water to which a drop of dishwashing liquid has been added. The ink on the nibs only comes off when you physically wipe it off with a cotton bud or cloth. So could it coat the inside of a piston tube? Potentially yes, but the piston would wipe it off as it passed it.

Would I fill one of my Montblanc piston fillers with a pigment or particulate based ink? Or my Omas Paragon, or Aurora Optima? No, personally, I wouldn't. I don't need to take that risk. I have plenty of converter fillers that I can use them with instead.

I have kept a pen filled with Sailor Souboku. I like it for addressing my envelopes. It's been filled for over a month now, and hasn't caused me any problems at all. However, I haven't bought either of those Sailor inks. I'm hoping to get a couple of R&K sketchINKS though.

If I was looking for a grey ink to fit your criteria I would look no further than R&K Thea or maybe even Lotte. (But my two stand-out favourites are still Lilly and Emma.) You can safely leave them in your pens for at least a week with no problem. I have done that.

Problems should only happen if you let pigmented inks dry out inside your pen. They all have warnings against that.

[suzy01]

I'm not sure about the grey but the black has always been fine in my pen with xxxf custom nib. Having said that I've been meaning to clean it out since I haven't used it since before Christmas! The white and yellow DA doc ink are completely different thou, they clog a pen really quickly so I'm wondering if grey would be between the black and white in terms of amount of particles required? I think I have grey in a pen too, I'll dig them out and let you know if they're completely busted.

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[inklord]

i've been using the nano-pigmented DeAtramantis "Urban Grey" for a few months now and have only had the best esperiences in an array of pens ranging from LAMY 2000 to Franklin-Christoph's p66. the ink has been extremely user friendly, dries reasonably fast, shows deep and rich shading, no spreading or feathering, no bleedthrough and seems to be easy to clean out of pens. next to Montblanc's "Permanent Grey" (which is now unavailable) it is my favorite grey ink - and i have currently fiftteen (that's 15, not 50) shades of that suddenly all-so-popular "non-color"!

[Butthurticus-VIII]

I'll just do an aside:

I wanted one pen and one ink that I could use for a specific purpose all the time: writing postcards. I needed a small tip on the nib (to cram in lots of useless trivia about my life to friends) and an ink that was completely waterproof, since it could easily get exposed to the elements on the way. I'm left-handed and don't particularly like fine nibs, but a few years ago ended up with an EF Sailor Pro Gear that, frankly, I just adore. I know no other nib that fine that I can write with so smoothly. While I had a number of black inks that I used regularly, they weren't waterproof. I used Noodler's Black for a while, but I found that if it was in the pen too long, evaporation caused it to thicken and then it was a smear/smudge-fest. I had to keep looking.

And then I found Sailor Kiwa-guro. Pigmented. Bombproof. Flowed well in that teeny nib.

So this ink has been in use in a very narrow nib, constantly filled, always ready, usually one of the 3 pens in my EDC case, and probably only flushed after maybe 2-3 refills of the converter. Might be weeks or months. Never a clog. Never any issues. None. For me, flawless performance.

So, yeah. Everyone says they are a hassle. I've got plenty of experience with inks that are a PITA. This is not one of them, and it has been this way for at least 3 years. Just take that for your consideration. I honestly believe pens are more robust than people give them credit for, and I take good care of my pens. I also allow for the possibility that some of this stuff is overblown.

Would you put this ink in a MB 149 or other expensive pen?


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[FredRydr]

...And then I found Sailor Kiwa-guro. Pigmented. Bombproof. Flowed well in that teeny nib....

I've had this black ink for a long time, since when Kiwa-guro was first being discussed on FPN as a discovery of a very black black ink, but it was unavailable for purchase within the US. So, I had a carton of bottles shipped to me from Japan. I sold them except for one bottle. A couple weeks ago, I sent a 5ml vial sample to a fellow geek, and he just wrote to me that the formula of Kiwa-guro in a bottle he just bought from a US retailer appears to be different than what I had shipped from Japan years ago. He wrote that my Kiwa-guro displays very fine particles that coat the sides of the vial and his pen's converter, and is odor-free. The modern Kiwaguro is "smooth" and shows no particles, but has the "characteristic odor of chloramines that many other Sailor inks have."

FYI

[Jon Szanto]

Would you put this ink in a MB 149 or other expensive pen?

Two answers:

1. Can you give me any solid, verifiable reasons why I shouldn't?

2. Ok, let's get real: I've got it in a Pro Gear, and it is a basic model (not Realo). Ruthenium plated hardware, if that matters. I can't remember what I paid for it, somewhere in the $200-300 range. Is that expensive enough? Right now my 'most expensive pens' top out around the $500 range, including Aurora Optimas, a recent Pelikan M800 Metal Stripes, and similar. (I don't care for MBs) To be honest, I'm satisfied I understand how this ink behaves in pens. My use of it has, and will have, more to do with the construction of the pen than it's net worth. Just as with highly saturated inks, I won't put it in any pens using a sac for filling, or a vintage pen that uses a vacuum filling system (Parker Duofold/Sheaffer Vac-fill). This is only because I would choose to flush thoroughly and these pens are much harder to do that, or certainly more labor intensive. I am not certain about using it in a piston-filling pen, as I wonder about potential nano-abrasive qualities of the pigment, but I'd be curious to try it out in a cheaper demo pen (either one of the newer Chinese pens or a TSWBI Eco or something) and see what I observe.

I've kept it in a pen that really works well with it, and flushing both the converter and section/feed/nib are no more work than any other ink I own. I do no less nor no more maintenance on this pen/ink combo than any other pen in my collection that is in use.

[Butthurticus-VIII]

Would you put this ink in a MB 149 or other expensive pen?

Two answers:

1. Can you give me any solid, verifiable reasons why I shouldn't?

2. Ok, let's get real: I've got it in a Pro Gear, and it is a basic model (not Realo). Ruthenium plated hardware, if that matters. I can't remember what I paid for it, somewhere in the $200-300 range. Is that expensive enough? Right now my 'most expensive pens' top out around the $500 range, including Aurora Optimas, a recent Pelikan M800 Metal Stripes, and similar. (I don't care for MBs) To be honest, I'm satisfied I understand how this ink behaves in pens. My use of it has, and will have, more to do with the construction of the pen than it's net worth. Just as with highly saturated inks, I won't put it in any pens using a sac for filling, or a vintage pen that uses a vacuum filling system (Parker Duofold/Sheaffer Vac-fill). This is only because I would choose to flush thoroughly and these pens are much harder to do that, or certainly more labor intensive. I am not certain about using it in a piston-filling pen, as I wonder about potential nano-abrasive qualities of the pigment, but I'd be curious to try it out in a cheaper demo pen (either one of the newer Chinese pens or a TSWBI Eco or something) and see what I observe.

I've kept it in a pen that really works well with it, and flushing both the converter and section/feed/nib are no more work than any other ink I own. I do no less nor no more maintenance on this pen/ink combo than any other pen in my collection that is in use.

Hi, thanks for your perspective. I agree with what you say that it’s probably best to use it in a pen that can be easily cleaned and the use in piston fillers may or may not cause some abrasion. I will give it a go in my CC pens.


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[BayesianPrior]

Very interesting comment about nano-abrasion. I hadn't considered that.

I use Kiwaguro exclusively in a Lamy Studio with EF nib and my hygiene for that pen probably leaves something to be desired.

I have usedK Kiwaguro in a Pelikan M800 on and off and have observed no ill effects - either in the barrel, behind the piston, or in the nib. YMMV.

[inklord]

I'll just do an aside:

I wanted one pen and one ink that I could use for a specific purpose all the time: writing postcards. I needed a small tip on the nib (to cram in lots of useless trivia about my life to friends) and an ink that was completely waterproof, since it could easily get exposed to the elements on the way. I'm left-handed and don't particularly like fine nibs, but a few years ago ended up with an EF Sailor Pro Gear that, frankly, I just adore. I know no other nib that fine that I can write with so smoothly. While I had a number of black inks that I used regularly, they weren't waterproof. I used Noodler's Black for a while, but I found that if it was in the pen too long, evaporation caused it to thicken and then it was a smear/smudge-fest. I had to keep looking.

And then I found Sailor Kiwa-guro. Pigmented. Bombproof. Flowed well in that teeny nib.

So this ink has been in use in a very narrow nib, constantly filled, always ready, usually one of the 3 pens in my EDC case, and probably only flushed after maybe 2-3 refills of the converter. Might be weeks or months. Never a clog. Never any issues. None. For me, flawless performance.

So, yeah. Everyone says they are a hassle. I've got plenty of experience with inks that are a PITA. This is not one of them, and it has been this way for at least 3 years. Just take that for your consideration. I honestly believe pens are more robust than people give them credit for, and I take good care of my pens. I also allow for the possibility that some of this stuff is overblown.

Would you put this ink in a MB 149 or other expensive pen?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i'd put it in a Sailor 1911 L Black Lustre, or a KOP, for that matter...

[Jon Szanto]

Very interesting comment about nano-abrasion. I hadn't considered that.

Please bear in mind that this is wild-ass speculation only. I have no real reason to believe it would occur, but now that I'm thinking about it, I might let it dry out in a cheap piston demo pen one day and see what happens with repeated piston travel. Worst-case scenario and all that.

[calamus]

i've been using the nano-pigmented DeAtramantis "Urban Grey" for a few months now and have only had the best esperiences in an array of pens ranging from LAMY 2000 to Franklin-Christoph's p66. the ink has been extremely user friendly, dries reasonably fast, shows deep and rich shading, no spreading or feathering, no bleedthrough and seems to be easy to clean out of pens. next to Montblanc's "Permanent Grey" (which is now unavailable) it is my favorite grey ink - and i have currently fiftteen (that's 15, not 50) shades of that suddenly all-so-popular "non-color"!

Urban Gray is the ink I was thinking about getting, although now I've got Sailor and Rohrer & Klingner inks to consider as well, if I'm going to go the nano-pigment route. Sounds like this might be the one. Thank you.

Ooops. None of those Sailor inks is gray. That simplifies things a little.

[Chrissy]

R & K only recommend their fountain pen cleaner called "reiniger" on their web-site. Whereas De Atramentis have a "thinner" or "dilution" for their Document inks.

[calamus]

R & K only recommend their fountain pen cleaner called "reiniger" on their web-site. Whereas De Atramentis have a "thinner" or "dilution" for their Document inks.

Right. I read a little more about the dilution fluid. Turns out that you can mix any of the DA document inks together to custom make new colors, and the dilution fluid can be used to make the new ink, or any single document ink, lighter in color if you want. It's specially formulated so that the thinned ink will still behave itself nicely. Sounds pretty cool, actually.

I read a review of it on the Goulet Pens site in which the reviewer said she'd used it with very good results with not only DA document inks, but with other inks as well, including Diamine and Iroshizuku. She also said she used with a dry Noodler's ink to lubricate it and make it wetter.

BTW, does the Thea have much shading? Thanks.

[inklord]

i've been using the nano-pigmented DeAtramantis "Urban Grey" for a few months now and have only had the best esperiences in an array of pens ranging from LAMY 2000 to Franklin-Christoph's p66. the ink has been extremely user friendly, dries reasonably fast, shows deep and rich shading, no spreading or feathering, no bleedthrough and seems to be easy to clean out of pens. next to Montblanc's "Permanent Grey" (which is now unavailable) it is my favorite grey ink - and i have currently fiftteen (that's 15, not 50) shades of that suddenly all-so-popular "non-color"!

Urban Gray is the ink I was thinking about getting, although now I've got Sailor and Rohrer & Klingner inks to consider as well, if I'm going to go the nano-pigment route. Sounds like this might be the one. Thank you.

Ooops. None of those Sailor inks is gray. That simplifies things a little.

...indeed, the only permanent"/waterproof inks that are really +/- neutral grey are to my knowledge MB "Permanent Grey" and DeA "Urban Grey", though the LE ink MB "Spider Grey" is quite water resistant. R&K "Thea" (which my wife uses quite a bit) is seriously brown(ish). if you wish to lighten DeA Docu inks without losing body, there is also a white ink that you can add.

[Chrissy]

R & K only recommend their fountain pen cleaner called "reiniger" on their web-site. Whereas De Atramentis have a "thinner" or "dilution" for their Document inks.

Right. I read a little more about the dilution fluid. Turns out that you can mix any of the DA document inks together to custom make new colors, and the dilution fluid can be used to make the new ink, or any single document ink, lighter in color if you want. It's specially formulated so that the thinned ink will still behave itself nicely. Sounds pretty cool, actually.

I read a review of it on the Goulet Pens site in which the reviewer said she'd used it with very good results with not only DA document inks, but with other inks as well, including Diamine and Iroshizuku. She also said she used with a dry Noodler's ink to lubricate it and make it wetter.

BTW, does the Thea have much shading? Thanks.

That is good to know. Thanks.

R&K sketchINK Thea is one that I don't have a sample of.....yet.

[inklord]

...here's some input obtained from my dear wife, who is a sketch artist and uses R&K sketchINK: "Thea" needs to be shaken ever so often to look more grey, otherwise whatever particles cause that grey look will settle and the ink will look brown. she uses this ink in a Pilot "Falcon" with a soft "F" nib, and the con40 converter in there has little shaker balls that help in agitating the ink. also, when i occasionally fill her "Falcon" for her, i have to shake the ink bottle very vigorously to release the pigment that has settled on the bottom of the bottle. after this, the ink foams excessively and i need to wait for about a minute until i can actually dip the pen into the ink without getting ink foam all over the grip section. This does not occur at all with the DeAtramentis "Urban Grey" formulation, though i did notice some settling in DeA Docu "Fog Grey" (which is actually a washed-out blue-black) and DeA Docu "Brown" (though to a much lesser degree and without the foaming after shaking).

[Chrissy]

I can confirm I've experienced the same foaming when I've shaken the R&K sketchINKs before filling.

A permanent grey that doesn't need shaking is Montblanc 90 years Permanent Grey. It's a dye based ink.

[inklord]

I can confirm I've experienced the same foaming when I've shaken the R&K sketchINKs before filling.

A permanent grey that doesn't need shaking is Montblanc 90 years Permanent Grey. It's a dye based ink.

... and now that i think about it - maybe DeAtramentis "Urban Grey" is dye-based as well? it is the only document or sketch ink from these german manufacturers (R&K and DeA) that i tried (other than the MB ink mentioned above) that shows no settling at all...