Condition, description

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Does anyone else think that it is high time that vintage pens had a proper lexicon of condition descriptions?

In an advert I read recently a pen was described as "excellent condition", and in further details it was revealed that the cap band was half-brassed, the cap had a few nicks, the barrel had a depression due to posting of the cap, and the clip was partially brassed.

How is this "excellent condition"?


Perhaps there should be a guide to condition similar to version that is now standard in describing the condition of vintage books.

[Jon Szanto]

Are you talking globally? or only on the sales here at FPG? Who will determine the terms and their use? How will this be enforced?

I'd probably look to established areas of much higher sales volume and penetration, such as traditional antiques or vintage cars, etc; your suggestion of the vintage books looks like a promising model, too. Nonetheless, you are still faced with a completely unenforcable bundle of rules and terms, and it seems like a fool's errand (I believe that is the phrase). I combine asking for photographic documentation and a strong degree of caveat emptor.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Globally.

I understand that this might seem like a fool's errand, but then how did the vintage book condition descriptions come to be accepted as a standard tool? It has to start somehow because, as you point out, it's unenforceable. The book example was only one such example, as you have also noted. However, that does not undermine the idea of applying something similar to vintage pens.


Perhaps in the first instance this should be driven by the more established vintage sellers?


Look, it's just a suggestion, and I believe one based on reasonable expectation of transparency. Please don't bite my head off for suggesting it. I believe a discussion may be helpful.

[Jon Szanto]

Look, it's just a suggestion, and I believe one based on reasonable expectation of transparency. Please don't bite my head off for suggesting it. I believe a discussion may be helpful.

Please - I only offered a counterpoint, there was no head-biting either written or intended. I am looking at it simply from my perspective, which is: even IF one (many ones, actually) somehow agreed on a grid of terms (something that I've never seen the pen community do on *any* topic) how on Earth would you propose to spread this out? From the discussion forum of one of the smallest sites on the net you are going to reach people and convince them... how?

I am more than happy to support any effort that has a viable, realistic concept for bringing something like this to fruition. If it is another exercise in typing, though, I have to pass. My comment was only a reality check, in intention and (hopefully) execution, based on past similar activities.

[Voiren]

I have a friend who complains a great deal about Amazon sellers' notions of near mint, very good condition, etc on their secondhand books.

[Chemyst]

I have a friend who complains a great deal about Amazon sellers' notions of near mint, very good condition, etc on their secondhand books.

That is the crux of the matter, right there.

Professionals, such as auction houses and specialist dealers, are going to be knowledgeable about conditions
and hew closely to accepted standards; while amateurs will use standard terms however they personally feel they should be applied.

Changing the lexicon doesn’t affect the root problem.

At best, a trade organization might offer to grade a pen based on their standards and offer their particular assessment and a certification, but that service would need to be widely available, affordable and recognized by buyers as something desirable.

HTH!

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I've no doubt that in any area where there aren't enforceable guidelines there will be some who will, either willfully or not, fail to describe their wares adequately. That does not mean that having a framework is a bad idea.

[Deb]

A globally-accepted set of description terms would probably make my life easier. As it is I do my best with ad hoc descriptions but I accept that these leave room for disagreement. Have at it!

[fountainpenkid]

I like this idea very much. And I actually do think some form of enforcement could be possible if a body were formed and announced to develop the system. Experienced collectors+restorers+sellers could get together, work it out comprehensively, give it a name, and then disseminate/'sell' it. Every time a sale would reference it by name, it would gain more power. The system could give sellers who consistently follow their guidelines a badge of approval or something. Chances of this happening? Unlikely.

[Deb]

Let's not talk about enforcement before we see how practical this is. I remember the various discussions about measuring flexibility of nibs that were pie in the sky and went nowhere. I think there are some measures that could be agreed but I'm not at all sure it should be dumped on restorers/sellers to do it. We're self-employed and most of us work very long hours and don't have that kind of time to spare. If this discussion doesn't just fade away as most do, and actually shows some practical development, I'll be happy to commit what time I can to it.

[pajaro]

Someone could bring the idea up to Pen Colectors of America, and let that group make some guidelines, if they haven't already. Then the Pen Collectors could advocate acceptance of definitions.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Sometimes one has to push a lot of small pebbles before the avalanche begins.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

How about something like this.


Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear.

Near mint: Handling / storage wear only.

Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches.

Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture.

User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating.



To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

Open to other ideas of course.

[Chrissy]

How about something like this.


Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear. Absolutely not! "Museum quality" means something that looks OK seen from a forward angle in a case. Might not be working. In a capped pen, it might have no nib or a very poor section. Inner cap could be missing major parts. Pen might have been filled with India ink and left for 25 years. What can't be seen doesn't matter in a museum.

Near mint: Handling / storage wear only. After "Brand new and never used," comes "mint". Not "near mint" or "almost mint." I believe everybody already knows what "mint" means. "Mint" is as close as you get to brand new without it being new. Just "mint." Saying "near mint" or "like mint" is like saying "very unique."

Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches. Excellent comes after mint. Might have micro scratches.

Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture. After excellent comes "very good." To many people "fine" might suggest better than very good or excellent or even mint and is an unnecessary "fluffing" step. e.g. there is "fine jewellery" - it usually means precious metals or stones. The only "fine" in pens regularly describes a nib tip width. Best to not use any words that could cause potential confusion.

User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating. User grade is the lowest.



To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

Open to other ideas of course.

Other ideas. Everyone who is a member of FPG will have their own ideas. Not that I'm going to use anything other than my own descriptions when I sell any pens of mine.

[Deb]

[
Other ideas. Everyone who is a member of FPG will have their own ideas. Not that I'm going to use anything other than my own descriptions when I sell any pens of mine.

That's right, Chrissy. The more I think about this, the more I am reminded that there is so much more to any pen than some simplistic code for condition. Then there are several types of restorer. I restore conservatively, meaning that my pens are clean and working well, but I have not re-blacked, re-plated or made any attempt to make an old pen look as if it was made yesterday. Is the condition of a pen to which those thing have been done better than my conservatively restored example? I don't think so. In fact I think the reverse is true. I think I'll be sticking to my descriptions which include a report on any flaws and signs of wear. People know what they're getting from me.

[TSherbs]

How about something like this.


Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear.

Near mint: Handling / storage wear only.

Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches.

Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture.

User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating.



To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

Open to other ideas of course.

I like these categories a lot.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

[Roger W.]

This topic was strongly debated probably some 12 years ago, back when there was even more vintage collectors. Vintage might still have been a heavy presence on the Boards yet then. I think we'd like grading pens to be like coins, easy. Apparently, there is a 6 point grading system for cars - that probably gets closer to it. Still, grading is always subjective. Sellers are always going to have better pens that what the buyer thinks. Could go to a third party to be graded like coins but, I doubt the expense would be as supportable. Many dealers sell using their own grading system which is fairly generic in approach but, generally gets to what they mean. Fair for 1915 will be different for 2015 but, that's understandable as well. Some will say that pens are minted (and they are not) but, we all know what you mean. It became clear then that a generally detailed description of the pen would get the point across without trying to call it "Fine" or "Excellent". There isn't anybody out there going to police this either. If there was a consensus possible on grading I think it would already be in place, as it is not I think you have your answer.

Roger W.

[Ray-VIgo]

This topic was strongly debated probably some 12 years ago, back when there was even more vintage collectors. Vintage might still have been a heavy presence on the Boards yet then. I think we'd like grading pens to be like coins, easy. Apparently, there is a 6 point grading system for cars - that probably gets closer to it. Still, grading is always subjective. Sellers are always going to have better pens that what the buyer thinks. Could go to a third party to be graded like coins but, I doubt the expense would be as supportable. Many dealers sell using their own grading system which is fairly generic in approach but, generally gets to what they mean. Fair for 1915 will be different for 2015 but, that's understandable as well. Some will say that pens are minted (and they are not) but, we all know what you mean. It became clear then that a generally detailed description of the pen would get the point across without trying to call it "Fine" or "Excellent". There isn't anybody out there going to police this either. If there was a consensus possible on grading I think it would already be in place, as it is not I think you have your answer.

Roger W.

Some good points. Let's take an example: a 1929 jade Balance might involve a little discoloration here and there and maybe some brassing to the clip ball, but mostly good color as to the celluloid. The same level of discoloration in a 1949 Touchdown might be seen as unusually bad because the older jade celluloid is so apt to discolor compared to the 1940s plastic of the Touchdown. Same with shrinking celluloid. I have a black 1920s Flat Top that you can tell has shrunken some, particularly at the cap. But one some level, it's to be expected of 90+ year old celluloid. The same shrinkage in a 1960s Imperial would be seen as unusually bad.

As an aside, I also like Roger's point about the change in the fountain pen market over the years. It seems to me the market for vintage pens was more active 10-15 years ago than it is now. At the last pen show I attended maybe 2-3 years ago in D.C., there were more younger people than usual, but also seemingly more interest in new pens and less in older ones. There was a lot more interest in the vintage pens I fixed and sold some years ago than there is today. Then there are the folks who have departed and were collectors and sources of knowledge. I miss when I used to visit Bert Heiserman at Pen Haven in Maryland once a month to talk old pens. He and Lou Wofsy were good company.

[AzJon]

As an aside, I also like Roger's point about the change in the fountain pen market over the years. It seems to me the market for vintage pens was more active 10-15 years ago than it is now. At the last pen show I attended maybe 2-3 years ago in D.C., there were more younger people than usual, but also seemingly more interest in new pens and less in older ones. There was a lot more interest in the vintage pens I fixed and sold some years ago than there is today. Then there are the folks who have departed and were collectors and sources of knowledge. I miss when I used to visit Bert Heiserman at Pen Haven in Maryland once a month to talk old pens. He and Lou Wofsy were good company.

Possibly, but there are many newcomers to the fountain pen world. Many of us, Penwash in particular, advocate for the appreciation and use of vintage pens. This plays out almost exclusively on Reddit, however. Which, for some, can hardly be uttered except through pursed lips and a bitter taste in the mouth. However, like it or not, if you want to encourage interest in vintage, you have to do it on that platform.

[catbert]

More often than not, I've been surprised — in good and bad ways — by aspects of a pen that weren't described at all.