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Thread: Condition, description

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    The point of the OP is that systems of grading exist for a great many types of collectible. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest a similar approach for fountain pens. The kick back against it is disappointing.

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    Senior Member pajaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    The point of the OP is that systems of grading exist for a great many types of collectible. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest a similar approach for fountain pens. The kick back against it is disappointing.
    I agree. You need not enforce it, it's just creating a common language to describe items. If some misuse it, knowledgeable collectors will figure it out. There do seem to be some terms most people understand.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    The point of the OP is that systems of grading exist for a great many types of collectible. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest a similar approach for fountain pens. The kick back against it is disappointing.
    You are getting feedback from people who are active sellers today, people who are active buyers today, and at least one comment that speaks with authority to actual attempts in the past within this very community to enact a similar agenda (with no resultant success). I can't say whether it should be considered disappointing or not, but when putting out a concept for discussion among others, I am always glad when I get rational and significant feedback, even if it ends up showing the flaws or unsustainability of my original concept.

    You aren't getting "kickback", you are receiving the sincere responses to your concept proposal. You never said "Don't tell me what I don't want to hear".
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    How about something like this.


    Museum: Perfect example. No flaws, or damage, or wear.

    Near mint: Handling / storage wear only.

    Excellent: Handling / storage wear, and /or minor wear from usage, micro scratches.

    Fine: Good overall condition but does show considerable wear from usage. Micro scratches present. Some brassing to furniture.

    User: Clear signs of hard use. Scratches present, possibly toothmarks, posting wear and considerable loss of plating.



    To add to this, an extra category of restored / unrestored.


    And to address the question of who might best drive such a framework, I would suggest the collectors. To my thinking serious collectors (and the sellers that sell to them) are more likely to be critical of condition.

    Open to other ideas of course.
    I like these categories a lot.

    Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

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    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    I don't say - or think - that it is impossible to come up with a description code for condition of pens but like anything worthwhile doing, account has to be taken of the complexity. That is not kick back.
    Regards,
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    I don't say - or think - that it is impossible to come up with a description code for condition of pens but like anything worthwhile doing, account has to be taken of the complexity. That is not kick back.
    Yes. I think single overall condition ratings have limited utility. There are many different ways to weigh the different facets of a pen's condition; buyers deserve a certain level of descriptive granularity to make their own judgments. Some well-regarded pen sellers use a combination of single rating with concise explanatory notes (e.g David Nishimura of vintagepens.com), which is generally satisfying.

    But sellers like Nishimura are not really those in question--we trust their judgement in deciding what to include in their explanatory notes, but may not want to leave such judgement up to less-experienced sellers. For this reason I think a universal condition factor checklist may be more of more use than a universal single grading system. They key, in my opinion, is to build an overall awareness of the different condition issues pens can have (from a nice comprehensive checklist) so that sellers are more likely to notice and make note of them in their sales.
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; March 24th, 2019 at 02:49 PM.
    Will
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    First of all, good discussion and thanks to David for always coming up with topics that engages us to think and participate.

    I agree that the need for a standardized condition rating seems to be clear, essential even, for a community of a hobby such as ours.

    However, the solution is not as clear cut.

    Others already did a great job explaining why subjectivity alone already made it fuzzy, I'd like to add that furthermore, we have the extra dimension of actually using the pen to write (plus sketch in my case).

    If you collect watches, you don't create anything with that watch other than building a collection, but with fountain pen, you can potentially fill up 100 journals, write a book, draw 1000 sketches, learn calligraphy, etc.

    Now we are faced with the situation where the condition of the fountain pen only accounts for a portion of why I'd want to buy it. The other portion is "does it write the way I wanted it to write?"

    As a vintage pen restorer, I found out after a while, that "user grade" pens cosmetic-wise often have (or can fit) absolutely amazing nib. And to make the matter worse, a lot of times, that nib only works with that "user grade" pen.

    (Conversely, a pristine sample of a vintage pen may come with a very boring nib that is too good to swap but uninspiring to write/draw with.)

    I used to think that I can fit any nib on any pen. Not so today, hundreds of restorations later.

    Plus as a buyer, sometimes I'd rather buy a user-grade pen that writes amazingly, rather than one in pristine condition that is not satisfying to write with.

    So now, what do we call a user-grade (cosmetic-wise) pen that has a perfect balance in your hand, and writes amazingly with a nib to die for?

    Excellent-but-not-really?
    User-grade-but-wait...?
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    First of all, good discussion and thanks to David for always coming up with topics that engages us to think and participate.

    I agree that the need for a standardized condition rating seems to be clear, essential even, for a community of a hobby such as ours.

    However, the solution is not as clear cut.

    Others already did a great job explaining why subjectivity alone already made it fuzzy, I'd like to add that furthermore, we have the extra dimension of actually using the pen to write (plus sketch in my case).

    If you collect watches, you don't create anything with that watch other than building a collection, but with fountain pen, you can potentially fill up 100 journals, write a book, draw 1000 sketches, learn calligraphy, etc.

    Now we are faced with the situation where the condition of the fountain pen only accounts for a portion of why I'd want to buy it. The other portion is "does it write the way I wanted it to write?"

    As a vintage pen restorer, I found out after a while, that "user grade" pens cosmetic-wise often have (or can fit) absolutely amazing nib. And to make the matter worse, a lot of times, that nib only works with that "user grade" pen.

    (Conversely, a pristine sample of a vintage pen may come with a very boring nib that is too good to swap but uninspiring to write/draw with.)

    I used to think that I can fit any nib on any pen. Not so today, hundreds of restorations later.

    Plus as a buyer, sometimes I'd rather buy a user-grade pen that writes amazingly, rather than one in pristine condition that is not satisfying to write with.

    So now, what do we call a user-grade (cosmetic-wise) pen that has a perfect balance in your hand, and writes amazingly with a nib to die for?

    Excellent-but-not-really?
    User-grade-but-wait...?
    On the point of nib characteristics, I would hope that any condition assessment system would also encourage (if not 'require') a description and picture of the pen's writing characteristics. That aspect of a pen's 'condition' is perhaps the most subjective and most determiniative for many buyers, and a system that made no mention of it would be a failure.

    Yet I can't say I see the watch/pen distinction when it comes to a pen's feel (balance, material, threads etc.)--that is why reviews and specifications* exist. A seller shouldn't be responsible, in my opinion for essentially reviewing the 'feel' of a pen's operations--they are a single subjective source with an agenda. Yet if the pen is truly rare and no information exists elsewhere, something would be better than nothing.
    *basic specifications might be a good requirement for the system
    Will
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    I provide a writing sample and say if a nib is flexible or not. I might even say if a nib is exceptionally flexible but that's as far as I'll go, because the perception of flexibility varies so much from one person to another. Measured degrees of flexibility? Forget it. All too subjective.
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Thanks, Wil. It was a quiet birthday with nobody around and I ran out of things to do, so I created a post!

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    The "enforcement" aspect would be the hardest to implement. Even if there were an agreed-upon set of descriptors, some sellers tend to lie, often egregiously. And even if, say, eBay decided to follow those descriptors when evaluating cases, there's always the old "he said, she said" game. The seller can always claim that the buyer cracked the cap/nib/barrel, and that it was in perfectly good condition when shipped.
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    Default Re: Condition, description

    This is the grading from David Nishimura's site:

    M = mint: perfect, factory new
    NM = near mint: may have been used briefly, or may be slightly shopworn
    exc = lightly used, minimal wear
    fine = used but with care; imprints are strong, brassing (plating wear-through) is minimal
    VG = very good: moderate wear, brassing is minor
    G = good: wear is significant but even, metal may show light dings or appreciable brassing
    F = fair: heavily worn, though fundamentally sound
    * = flaws or damage aside from normal wear; specifics will be noted in detail in the description
    NOS = new old stock: unused, unsold when new; not a complete description of condition since such items may show shop wear

    This is the grading used on Reddit:


    [A1] - Mint (Uninked). Shows no signs of use.
    [A2] - Same as A1 but may have been dipped or inked.
    [N] - New or New old stock, un-inked but may show minor drawer wear.
    [B] - Excellent. All parts original and showing only very slight signs of use. Very slight surface scratching; very minor discoloration or brassing; crisp imprints; no significant dings.
    [C] - Fine. All parts original. Some discoloration and brassing; light or worn imprints; small dings to metal or scratching on plastic.
    [D] - Fair. Some parts possibly not original; significant brassing or discoloration; very worn imprints; dings and scratches. Maybe a good writing pen or usable for parts.
    [Parts] - Parts or only good for parts

    (supposedly this list is from Richard Binder).

    I personally like Dave's breakdown better.

    Of course, this is assuming that eBay sellers (or what have you) adhere to the same standard. The number of "rare" pens I see on there is ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    This topic was strongly debated probably some 12 years ago, back when there was even more vintage collectors. Vintage might still have been a heavy presence on the Boards yet then. I think we'd like grading pens to be like coins, easy. Apparently, there is a 6 point grading system for cars - that probably gets closer to it. Still, grading is always subjective. Sellers are always going to have better pens that what the buyer thinks. Could go to a third party to be graded like coins but, I doubt the expense would be as supportable. Many dealers sell using their own grading system which is fairly generic in approach but, generally gets to what they mean. Fair for 1915 will be different for 2015 but, that's understandable as well. Some will say that pens are minted (and they are not) but, we all know what you mean. It became clear then that a generally detailed description of the pen would get the point across without trying to call it "Fine" or "Excellent". There isn't anybody out there going to police this either. If there was a consensus possible on grading I think it would already be in place, as it is not I think you have your answer.

    Roger W.
    Some good points. Let's take an example: a 1929 jade Balance might involve a little discoloration here and there and maybe some brassing to the clip ball, but mostly good color as to the celluloid. The same level of discoloration in a 1949 Touchdown might be seen as unusually bad because the older jade celluloid is so apt to discolor compared to the 1940s plastic of the Touchdown. Same with shrinking celluloid. I have a black 1920s Flat Top that you can tell has shrunken some, particularly at the cap. But one some level, it's to be expected of 90+ year old celluloid. The same shrinkage in a 1960s Imperial would be seen as unusually bad.

    As an aside, I also like Roger's point about the change in the fountain pen market over the years. It seems to me the market for vintage pens was more active 10-15 years ago than it is now. At the last pen show I attended maybe 2-3 years ago in D.C., there were more younger people than usual, but also seemingly more interest in new pens and less in older ones. There was a lot more interest in the vintage pens I fixed and sold some years ago than there is today. Then there are the folks who have departed and were collectors and sources of knowledge. I miss when I used to visit Bert Heiserman at Pen Haven in Maryland once a month to talk old pens. He and Lou Wofsy were good company.

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray-VIgo View Post

    As an aside, I also like Roger's point about the change in the fountain pen market over the years. It seems to me the market for vintage pens was more active 10-15 years ago than it is now. At the last pen show I attended maybe 2-3 years ago in D.C., there were more younger people than usual, but also seemingly more interest in new pens and less in older ones. There was a lot more interest in the vintage pens I fixed and sold some years ago than there is today. Then there are the folks who have departed and were collectors and sources of knowledge. I miss when I used to visit Bert Heiserman at Pen Haven in Maryland once a month to talk old pens. He and Lou Wofsy were good company.
    Possibly, but there are many newcomers to the fountain pen world. Many of us, Penwash in particular, advocate for the appreciation and use of vintage pens. This plays out almost exclusively on Reddit, however. Which, for some, can hardly be uttered except through pursed lips and a bitter taste in the mouth. However, like it or not, if you want to encourage interest in vintage, you have to do it on that platform.

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    I had a bit of a giggle today about a pen described as being in "excellent minty condition"!

    Mmm, minty fresh.

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    Default Re: Condition, description

    I like the description from Go Pens

    Mint, No signs of use
    Near Mint, slightest signs of use
    Excellent, imprints good, writes well, looks great
    Fine +, May have brassing or darkening or some wear
    Fine, Used, parts show some wear
    Good, Well used wear to imprints, plating wear
    Poor (go Pens uses the word Fair, ) Parts pen

    In all cases there needs to be a disclosure if the pen does not work as intended by the maker.

    I have come a cropper on poor seller descriptions in the past, bought a modern Parker from Pensupply2000 which he described as mint. When it arrived the pen was covered in scratches and had a heavily worn nib, with ink in the pen.

    Another pen bought from Vintage Fountain Pens was described as excellent, the pen when it arrived had a completely unusable nib, went back to him, he tried to smooth it but sent it back to me with a note 'best I can do'.

    Another Vintage MB from an international seller, pen simply did not function properly, ink dripped off the nib as you wrote. When I asked the seller about the feed, I had the response, 'I thought this 1950s 149 was just for your collection, not a user'.

    Another regular pen seller described her pens as New Old Stock, when asked to explain what she meant she gave the answer, the pen was new to my stock!

    So I agree, a definitive guide that can be relied upon and measured would be an excellent idea.
    Last edited by Bzzer; April 21st, 2019 at 11:05 AM.

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