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    Question state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    don't know about the rest of the world, but the UK is embroiled in an ongoing debacle caused by private pharmaceutical producers grossly inflating the price of medicines.

    seems to me the obvious solution is state owned production of all out-of-patent essential treatments, am i wrong?

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Didn’t you once say you’re conservative?

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Pharmaceutical price gouging is massive in the US too. I daresay it is probably a relatively common phenomenon whenever there is private interest in public health.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    I'm no fan of pharmaceutical companies for a lot of reasons, but I do realize that they are a business and need to recoup development (and liability) costs and still make a profit.

    The real problem is that the capitalistic drive for profit is the capitalistic drive that develops new pharmaceuticals. The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.
    Except healthcare, education, emergency services... that sort of thing.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Don't look now Silverlifter but your examples just proved dneal's point.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Don't look now Silverlifter but your examples just proved dneal's point.
    I'm genuinely sorry you live in a failed state. Many of the rest of us are fortunate enough to live in functioning ones...
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.
    Except healthcare, education, emergency services... that sort of thing.

    The only state that does those things well is the State of Utopia.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.
    Except healthcare, education, emergency services... that sort of thing.
    The only state that does those things well is the State of Utopia.
    It's one thing to make a throwaway comment, another entirely to provide some supporting rationale. Those countries that do provide state owned healthcare, education etc, tend to rank at the top of economic and wellbeing indicators, eg these ones. The top 10 all provide state owned healthcare and education.

    So, not utopia, just enlightened.

    #edit: I initially missed your first post, with the link to the Reason article. If I had, I wouldn't have bothered to respond. I understand you have that weird American syndrome where, probably because you have not lived anywhere else, you can't conceive of a system that is not fundamentally broken the way yours is. As I said in a previous post, I am genuinely sorry you live in a failed state. Just don't project your own issue onto onther nations, some of us are able to manage a lot better...
    Last edited by silverlifter; June 15th, 2019 at 07:46 PM.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.
    Except healthcare, education, emergency services... that sort of thing.
    The only state that does those things well is the State of Utopia.
    It's one thing to make a throwaway comment, another entirely to provide some supporting rationale. Those countries that do provide state owned healthcare, education etc, tend to rank at the top of economic and wellbeing indicators, eg these ones. The top 10 all provide state owned healthcare and education.

    So, not utopia, just enlightened.

    #edit: I initially missed your first post, with the link to the Reason article. If I had, I wouldn't have bothered to respond. I understand you have that weird American syndrome where, probably because you have not lived anywhere else, you can't conceive of a system that is not fundamentally broken the way yours is. As I said in a previous post, I am genuinely sorry you live in a failed state. Just don't project your own issue onto onther nations, some of us are able to manage a lot better...
    I believe you started the “throwaway” comment thing. I can play that game too.

    I lived in Germany for 10 years. So much for your assumptions.

    The U.S. is hardly a “failed state”. I would think a Brit would be one of the last people to hurl “failed state” accusations.

    —edit—

    The U.S. appears to be one step above the U.K. in your link...
    Last edited by dneal; June 15th, 2019 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.
    Except healthcare, education, emergency services... that sort of thing.
    The only state that does those things well is the State of Utopia.
    It's one thing to make a throwaway comment, another entirely to provide some supporting rationale. Those countries that do provide state owned healthcare, education etc, tend to rank at the top of economic and wellbeing indicators, eg these ones. The top 10 all provide state owned healthcare and education.

    So, not utopia, just enlightened.

    #edit: I initially missed your first post, with the link to the Reason article. If I had, I wouldn't have bothered to respond. I understand you have that weird American syndrome where, probably because you have not lived anywhere else, you can't conceive of a system that is not fundamentally broken the way yours is. As I said in a previous post, I am genuinely sorry you live in a failed state. Just don't project your own issue onto onther nations, some of us are able to manage a lot better...
    Universal healthcare, socialist, failed state?

    Like Venezuela?

    At least its gold escaped to Africa.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The State rarely does anything well, cheaply or efficiently.
    Except healthcare, education, emergency services... that sort of thing.
    Reference to The Ten, or to The State?

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    All things being relative, the UK's various state owned/operated systems are definitely better than nothing, however, they could certainly be a lot better - to say their basic maintenance and development has been neglected would be an understatement, but i think the same should be said about the state of our community as a whole.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    I did some readin' at multiple sites with discovery...learned.....
    Thank you......
    Fred

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Socialism works... for a while. Then it fails miserably. You can only cripple the most productive sector of society for so long before the parasites kill off their host.

    Socialsm was designed to soften the ground to provide a transition to communism in countries where a violent revolution isn't viable.
    Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. — Horace
    (What are you laughing at? Just change the name and the joke’s on you.)

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    I'd love to end socialism for big companies. Those parasites have been draining the middle and lower classes for decades.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    I'd love to end socialism for big companies. Those parasites have been draining the middle and lower classes for decades.
    While I agree with your first sentence, I’m skeptical about the second. How are big companies draining the middle and lower classes?

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    I'd love to end socialism for big companies. Those parasites have been draining the middle and lower classes for decades.
    While I agree with your first sentence, I’m skeptical about the second. How are big companies draining the middle and lower classes?
    One example: the latest last tax cuts benefitted large corporations and the rich directly and the lower and middle class much less if at all. Those tax cuts were intended to "trickle down" but many large corps simply did stock buybacks with the extra money.

    Lowering top tier taxes had been going on since Reagan. Horse and sparrow economics hasn't really done much for the little guy.

    Going back to the financial crisis a few years ago, the greed of a few bankrupted many individuals (and companies), and many people are still only just recovering. Who got the bailout? Not individuals but large companies. On top of the financial damage inflicted by companies our tax dollars went to bail out those same greedy companies.

    Unfortunately, wages have been pretty stagnant for awhile while housing costs seem to keep growing. Healthcare costs keep growing as well. And education costs. All putting more and more pressure on the middle and lower classes. Sure unemployment numbers look great but nobody mentions how many jobs people have to work just to get by.

    Somehow it is totally acceptable for a family to end up destitute and homeless from getting sick one time, because they can't afford healthcare or insurance, while it is also perfectly fine to bail out or subsidize big companies.

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    Default Re: state ownership of pharmaceutical production

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    I'd love to end socialism for big companies. Those parasites have been draining the middle and lower classes for decades.
    While I agree with your first sentence, I’m skeptical about the second. How are big companies draining the middle and lower classes?
    One example: the latest last tax cuts benefitted large corporations and the rich directly and the lower and middle class much less if at all. Those tax cuts were intended to "trickle down" but many large corps simply did stock buybacks with the extra money.

    Lowering top tier taxes had been going on since Reagan. Horse and sparrow economics hasn't really done much for the little guy.

    Going back to the financial crisis a few years ago, the greed of a few bankrupted many individuals (and companies), and many people are still only just recovering. Who got the bailout? Not individuals but large companies. On top of the financial damage inflicted by companies our tax dollars went to bail out those same greedy companies.

    Unfortunately, wages have been pretty stagnant for awhile while housing costs seem to keep growing. Healthcare costs keep growing as well. And education costs. All putting more and more pressure on the middle and lower classes. Sure unemployment numbers look great but nobody mentions how many jobs people have to work just to get by.

    Somehow it is totally acceptable for a family to end up destitute and homeless from getting sick one time, because they can't afford healthcare or insurance, while it is also perfectly fine to bail out or subsidize big companies.
    A few things are mingled together here. First, which is what I agree with, is an aversion to "corporate welfare". Doesn't matter to me whether it's subsidies to large corporate farms or automaker bailouts.

    Second is tax cuts to corporations. I tend to agree with lower tax rates in general. Lower corporate tax rates appear to me to increase investment, which leads to job growth. Kennedy, Reagan and Trump in particular have advocated and implemented this, and the results seem consistent. Job growth leads to a higher demand and lower supply, which increases wages. I believe this is reasonably demonstrable. You just have to pick the right field, and most of the liberal arts degrees don't work out.

    Education and healthcare costs are affected greatly by administrative burden / costs, most of which are mandated by the State. I'll post links later when I have a little more time. Healthcare costs in particular are interesting, and there's a reasonable argument that the problem is that we don't directly see the costs since a great portion of them are "hidden" by insurance. There is a lot of writing on this subject, what the costs used to be, and how businesses began offering healthcare as a tax-free method of offering "higher wages" to employees. There have been startups of doctors offering subscription based fixed fee healthcare, which is in line with how healthcare used to be delivered. It seems to be a viable, successful alternative.

    Housing is a tricky topic given the variety of markets and their demand. A 1920's craftsman "fixer-upper" is worth 60-80k in the midwest, and $150k or so when renovated. This same type construction is worth over a million in a California market. Housing regulations and restrictions which are largely governed locally tend to be a major influence. San Francisco is a prime example of how government can screw up a housing market.

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