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Thread: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

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    Question why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Fair disclosure - i am fervently anti-monarchy, anti-religion (though i do not deny the existence of a 'higher power', i do deny subservience to it) and pro-democracy (in particular 'direct' democracy); so, that all said, i cannot understand why so many in Britain, Ireland, and Europe are getting so het up about whether or not {'the island of'} Ireland should or shouldn't have a 'hard' border.

    Surely, it is in everybody's best interest, particularly those concerned with combating any potential future escalation of sectarian violence, to have a 'hard' border between two separate states, especially these two and after any form of 'Brexit'?

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    Default why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Ehm, i am not sure if i understand you...

    Catholics in Northern Ireland want the island to be united, and protestants in Northern Ireland want the island to remain divided. A hard border would antagonize the former, possibly returning to the violence of the 70s and 80s.

    So, yeah, the status quo seems the best “no-real-fundamental-solution”, and yeah, the brexit seems to jeopardize it... Your point again please?
    Last edited by Linger; July 28th, 2019 at 03:27 AM.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    My point?! That there is no logical reason why, if Ireland is not unified, there shouldn't be an enforced border.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    The “logical” reason would be to prevent the IRA to start again with their measures to unify the island.

    The status quo, a divided island but without a hard border between the two countries (Ireland and Northern Ireland), was the compromise to end the violence.

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    Exclamation Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Well, the violence hasn't stopped;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47985469

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49138877

    so, that arguement is kind of a non-starter.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Your non-argument is such an important one to all others, that it is holding up any and all alternatives...

    Anyway, i am wondering that if 31 October will show a no-deal brexit, the “hard” border will be a de-facto reality...

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Yeah, i get that it is apparently really important to a lot of others, or at least if one is to believe the projection of certain mainstream media outlets...

    but you don't hear them making a fuss about how antagonistic some, if not all, of the activities of the so-called 'Orange Order' are!

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Violence is addictive to some. Hard to give up something you "enjoy" when you are way past the point where you can remember why you were so exercised in the first place.

    People, perverse as they most often are, seem to require problems. You take away this fight and they'll go looking for another. It is endless and it is frustrating.

    Just my opinion, of course.

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    Lightbulb Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quite right EoC...

    Arrogance, ignorance, pretentions, and apathy towards inequality... just a few of humanity's worst and most enduring weaknesses.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Anyway, what I meant was that there will always be (or so it seems) people involved in any dispute who foment violence because that is their motivation, not the original complaint.

    To clarify:

    People, perverse as they most often are, seem to require problems. You take away this fight and they'll go looking for another. It is endless and it is frustrating.
    By this (bolded) I am suggesting that some people fabricate a problem. They get off on being "the angry crowd".
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; July 29th, 2019 at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Anyway, what I meant was that there will always be (or so it seems) people involved in any dispute who foment violence because that is their motivation, not the original complaint.

    To clarify:

    People, perverse as they most often are, seem to require problems. You take away this fight and they'll go looking for another. It is endless and it is frustrating.
    By this (bolded) I am suggesting that some people fabricate a problem. They get off on being "the angry crowd".
    Maybe people are getting agitated because the media is stoking unrest? Hey, gotta keep those ratings up, and nothing does that better than a violent, angry crowd. I have not heard that a hard border with Ireland is mandatory. Maybe I am wrong on that?

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Anyway, what I meant was that there will always be (or so it seems) people involved in any dispute who foment violence because that is their motivation, not the original complaint.

    To clarify:

    People, perverse as they most often are, seem to require problems. You take away this fight and they'll go looking for another. It is endless and it is frustrating.
    By this (bolded) I am suggesting that some people fabricate a problem. They get off on being "the angry crowd".
    Maybe people are getting agitated because the media is stoking unrest? Hey, gotta keep those ratings up, and nothing does that better than a violent, angry crowd. I have not heard that a hard border with Ireland is mandatory. Maybe I am wrong on that?
    Well, there is no "will be" about any of this cuz nothing is definite yet. But people are considering the possibility because this outcome is not unreasonable to prepare for. Independent nations can make whatever kind of border they want (in the context of their own laws).

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Well, there is no "will be" about any of this cuz nothing is definite yet. But people are considering the possibility because this outcome is not unreasonable to prepare for. Independent nations can make whatever kind of border they want (in the context of their own laws).
    True, but making a border and effectively enforcing it are two different things. Also, just because a nation can do something doesn't mean it should. @SIR appears to think that a hard border will prevent sectarian violence, but couldn't the opposite well happen? Even the United States and North Korea are unable to create hermetically sealed borders.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Well, there is no "will be" about any of this cuz nothing is definite yet. But people are considering the possibility because this outcome is not unreasonable to prepare for. Independent nations can make whatever kind of border they want (in the context of their own laws).
    True, but making a border and effectively enforcing it are two different things. Also, just because a nation can do something doesn't mean it should. @SIR appears to think that a hard border will prevent sectarian violence, but couldn't the opposite well happen? Even the United States and North Korea are unable to create hermetically sealed borders.
    Valid points. I was commenting on the uncertainty of current projections. An internal hard border inside Ireland is a fool's gambit. But that doesn't mean it won't happen.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Well, there is no "will be" about any of this cuz nothing is definite yet. But people are considering the possibility because this outcome is not unreasonable to prepare for. Independent nations can make whatever kind of border they want (in the context of their own laws).
    True, but making a border and effectively enforcing it are two different things. Also, just because a nation can do something doesn't mean it should. @SIR appears to think that a hard border will prevent sectarian violence, but couldn't the opposite well happen? Even the United States and North Korea are unable to create hermetically sealed borders.
    No, i certainly am not suggesting a hard border would in any way prevent sectarian violence; my point in that regard is merely that not having a hard border has not prevented so-called sectarian violence.

    My suggestion is that if one is to have a defined border between to separate states then it should be an enforceable border.

    The Irish border and the question of a UK withdrawal from the EU, particularly considering the arguments regarding unaccountable foreign interlopers and undesirables penetrating the various borders within and on the perimeter of the EU, means that a hard border is at least in the interest of the UK if not Ireland and the EU also.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    An internal hard border inside Ireland is a fool's gambit.
    Is it?

    Pray tell, please do detail how.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    I'm not anti-monarchy - they serve us more than we serve them. We work them into their 90s, take everything off them that they earn, and only let them have back 20%(?) of everything they directly make for us (and none of the indirect revenue from tourism and the overseas buttering up missions that we send them on). We also make sure that they pay for the running of the palaces out of that percentage, to keep them in good order so the Treasury of our directly elected parliament, to whom the Crown Estate is accountable, continues to yield as much money from them as possible! I think we do bloody well out of them, to be honest. Show me any other landlord and employer that we tax 80%, and does, says, and goes wherever and whenever our Parliament tells them ...

    As to the issue of Northern Ireland, I'm still bewildered how May negotiated a deal to leave, which included the EU being able to say "Well, if you're leaving, we're still keeping control of that bit!". No you're bloody well not! I don't understand why they think they can tell us which bits we can leave, and which we can't ... but then they've never really understood the concept of democracy. In a way, I wish Her Maj wasn't quite so restrained by parliament, and could wade in and tell 'em, "This is a democracy. My people are getting what they voted for, and none of you lot (here or there) are getting in the way of that, whether you think it's a bad idea or not".

    As to a border, I really don't know how much of a difference that would make.

    The Good Friday agreement is supposed to revolve around a shared government, which hasn't been in place for ages, because they're too busy playing silly games. If they're not going to do what the agreement was set up to do, then what's the point of tiptoeing around trying to accommodate something that they don't want. That vicar chap at that young journalist's funeral nailed it when he said they should all grow up and get their act together! Maybe we need a border to get everyone back working towards a functioning devolved government. because not having a border isn't getting the people of Northern Island any nearer to the representative administration they're entitled to.

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    Cool Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    monarchy don't know the meaning of the word 'work' - they live off the toil of others, they're merely glorified landlords; if you think different, you're a fool.

    p.s.
    we don't need 'Her Maj', we have Nigel Farage.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by SIR View Post
    monarchy don't know the meaning of the word 'work' - they live off the toil of others, they're merely glorified landlords; if you think different, you're a fool.
    Want to go and tell that to Prince Andrew, who flew active service during the Falklands War? Or Prince William who flew for RAF Search and Rescue? Or Prince Harry who served in Afghanistan? Or Prince Philip who was involved in the Allied Invasion of Sicily, the Battle of Crete and the Battle of Cape Matapan during WW2? Or the Queen serving as junior officer in the ATS also during WW2? And that's without even touching on the work they do as ambassadors both for Great Britain and the many charitable and other similarly worthy causes.

    When you say the monarchy don't know the meaning of the word 'work', you denigrate all the men and women who have served this country, including me.

    The rest of your post is nothing more than a statement of your intolerance for other people's opinions.



    As for Ireland. If you pulled everyone out of NI and brought them to the UK, and allowed the whole of Ireland to be a single entity... they'd soon find some other imagined injustice to bitch and complain about. In my opinion there is no solution other than to let the distance of time blur the animosities and perceived slights. Hopefully.

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    Default Re: why shouldn't Ireland have a 'hard' border?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    In my opinion there is no solution other than to let the distance of time blur the animosities and perceived slights. Hopefully.
    Could take a while if people are still marching about the Battle of the Boyne.

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