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Thread: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Reading through these arguments remind me of shave forums where old Gillette models are identified with the case and not the razor. It can be confusing. Many times a person finds their dream razor only to have the other forum members explain it's in the wrong box. I sometimes think the factory might used whatever box was available at the end of the run. Perhaps this is true for this fine looking fountain pen. Perhaps its a prototype. In the end, members who rain on someone's parade and claim to be an expert makes actual discussion a chore. I trust the OP will be able to fully enjoy their prized FP. Cheers.

    Often, the experts can't agree.
    Sometimes, facts and logic produce conclusions that feel like rain. Shooting the messenger doesn't stop the rain.

    Perhaps it's a prototype. Of course, this possibility can be applied to anything, leading to the baseless conclusion that no opinions can ever be rendered about the originality or correctness of any object. That's just silly. Luckily, Occam's (not Gillette's) Razor helps us with this.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fill, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    The pissing contests are profoundly annoying. There are many ways to pass along information, to teach, to share. The best ways aren't being modeled here.

    If the primary goal is establishing dominance, then the primary goal isn't educating the proto-collector and the thread becomes more noise than signal.
    You'll note that a pissing contest is generally construed as a debate between or among people claiming knowledge and reaching different conclusions. Notably, that's not happening here at all. I offered my opinion and a summary of the reasoning behind it. Fred seemed upset with that, and someone else made up a bunch of nonsense I didn't say and then attacked me for it, so that caused an unfortunate digression, but the central matter is merely that there's no evidence that Sheaffer offered a model in the configuration shown here. If anyone has facts to the contrary, I'd be interested to learn of them, and I'm sure others would as well.

    Learning where the White Dot is on this pen would add to the discussion.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    What is a “model”? Is it always something in the catalogs?
    Not at all, as experienced collectors and researchers know all too well. It's a product produced by the maker (or its agent) in a particular form.

    Say there were Sheaffer products not listed in the catalogs. Catalog fundamentalism would then prioritize the output of the Sheaffer sales department over the shop floor.
    No sufficiently experienced collector thinks that a pen model is only considered correct if it appears in a catalog. I own probably hundreds of pens that are not known to have been cataloged, but which are surely products of the company.

    Alternatively, we could assume that in Sheaffer’s long history that production was entirely according to The Plan, that all products were listed, and that all the lists are extant. ln this case, we would certainly trust the documents over the pens. But how reasonable is it to make such assumptions?
    Again, I know of no reasonably experienced collector who believes that only instruments that appeared in catalogs were issued by pen companies' factories.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Dear Daniel Kirchheimer

    My English skills are far from being able to take part in a contest (which would never be my wish either).
    Nevertheless, I would like to ask you to think about what a discussion like the one taking place here sends for a signal to the outside of this forum, but also to other forum members.
    Aren't it just collectors who want to share their fountain pens with others (more or less knowledgeable) those who make up a forum like this?
    Will they rather not show pictures of their pens in the future because they fear a derailment like this?
    Just a thought.

    Christof Zollinger
    Last edited by christof; December 3rd, 2019 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fill, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    You'll note that a pissing contest is generally construed as a debate between or among people claiming knowledge and reaching different conclusions.
    Pissing contest, noun

    A contest or rivalry in which the main concern of the parties involved is the conspicuous demonstration of superiority.

    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pissing_contest

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    There comes a point where the "ignore" option becomes ever more attractive.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    There comes a point where the "ignore" option becomes ever more attractive.
    Nah. Even Court Jesters have their place.
    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    There comes a point where the "ignore" option becomes ever more attractive.
    Nah. Even Court Jesters have their place.
    You make a good point.
    Regards,
    Deb
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fill, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    You'll note that a pissing contest is generally construed as a debate between or among people claiming knowledge and reaching different conclusions.
    Pissing contest, noun

    A contest or rivalry in which the main concern of the parties involved is the conspicuous demonstration of superiority.

    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pissing_contest
    An excellent definition, and not at all what happened in this thread. I offered an expert opinion, and someone else made up a bunch of stuff that I hadn't said and then he attacked me for those fabrications (which he eventually sort-of retracted). Did calamus conspicuously demonstrate superiority? No. Was my main concern to demonstrate superiority? Clearly not; it was to offer and explain an opinion (and then to expose a fallacious attack).

    --Daniel
    Last edited by kirchh; December 13th, 2019 at 01:35 PM.
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by christof View Post
    Dear Daniel Kirchheimer

    My English skills are far from being able to take part in a contest (which would never be my wish either).
    Nevertheless, I would like to ask you to think about what a discussion like the one taking place here sends for a signal to the outside of this forum, but also to other forum members.
    Aren't it just collectors who want to share their fountain pens with others (more or less knowledgeable) those who make up a forum like this?
    Will they rather not show pictures of their pens in the future because they fear a derailment like this?
    Just a thought.

    Christof Zollinger
    I agree -- people who want to show and learn about pens might hesitate when they see that others discussing pen information are subjected to repeated baseless attacks. So, your comment is most sensibly directed to any parties who have engaged in those attacks.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    I would wager that if you took a poll on the matter, the majority would not see that aspect of it.
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I would wager that if you took a poll on the matter, the majority would not see that aspect of it.
    Fortunately, reason is not determined through popularity contests.

    —Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    No, but popularity is. In this kind of environment, how you deliver your information is just as important as the content. Teaching 101 really.
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    No, but popularity is. In this kind of environment, how you deliver your information is just as important as the content. Teaching 101 really.
    I don’t post information about pens to be popular, and I delivered my opinion in a simple, direct manner. When met with snark, nastiness, and fabrications of what I’d said, I did not respond in kind.

    It’s interesting how people sometimes fail to see the reality that is in front of them.

    —Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    You may think you are offering an "opinion in a simple, direct manner"; that is not how it is taken by others on this thread. They are not offering "snark, nastiness, and fabrications" just for the hell of it. The manner of your delivery in this thread has been perceived by others as unnecessarily combative (there are other adjectives, but this is probably the most encompassing one), and people have reacted accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    No, but popularity is. In this kind of environment, how you deliver your information is just as important as the content. Teaching 101 really.
    I don’t post information about pens to be popular, and I delivered my opinion in a simple, direct manner. When met with snark, nastiness, and fabrications of what I’d said, I did not respond in kind.

    It’s interesting how people sometimes fail to see the reality that is in front of them.

    —Daniel

    It's interesting how people sometimes make a statement about others without ever noticing how it applies to themselves.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; December 7th, 2019 at 12:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    You just don't get it, do you?

    You may think you are offering an "opinion in a simple, direct manner"; that is not how it is taken by others on this thread. They are not offering "snark, nastiness, and fabrications" just for the hell of it. The manner of your delivery in this thread has been perceived by others as unnecessarily combative (there are other adjectives, but this is probably the most encompassing one), and people have reacted accordingly.
    People often struggle with coping with information that conflicts with their existing preferred beliefs; when that happens, some types of people attack the messenger rather than recognizing that reality is different from what they had hoped. That's on them.

    The fact that some people take opinions delivered in a simple, direct manner -- "Nice pen, though a mismatch; there's no evidence the Crest Masterpiece was offered in any color other than black" -- and respond with snark, nastiness, and fabrications is a reflection of their inability to consider that things might not be as they'd like them to be, and their defense mechanism is to be unnecessarily combative. This is rooted in bias and closed-mindedness, in my experience. I can't fix that, but I can provide information and my expert opinions. Some will benefit; some will not like the consequences of those messages. Some seem very concerned about excelling in popularity contests; I have no interest in that.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    You are incorrect. People aren't struggling with anything here other than your unfortunately abrasive delivery. It is a reflection of how you have presented yourself. Each time you return to rebut something you overlook your manner and focus on the content, completely ignoring the very simple fact that it is your manner that people react to.

    Again, to make it easier to understand what is going on: Your opinion is that your delivery is simple and direct. You may think this is true, but others do not. You are in no position to gainsay on how other people perceive you.

    Some seem very concerned about excelling in popularity contests; I have no interest in that.
    And yet here you are, still arguing your point from a position of narrow-minded self-assurance that you are right and everyone else is wrong (concerning the why of their disgruntlement - which just for the record is NOT due to the likely factual content of your submissions to this thread).


    Although there remains the tiniest of chances such a non-black Crest Masterpiece pen could have existed, I imagine most people here (myself included) are accepting of your 'expert' opinion on this. Those facts, as you presented, are in little to no doubt. it is your delivery that has triggered the reaction. If you cannot see this, or most likely don't wish to acknowledge that this could be the case... well, it demonstrates an unfortunate lack of self-reflection.
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    You are incorrect. People aren't struggling with anything here other than your unfortunately abrasive delivery. It is a reflection of how you have presented yourself. Each time you return to rebut something you overlook your manner and focus on the content, completely ignoring the very simple fact that it is your manner that people react to.
    Some people are unable to accept content that conflicts with their desires, and they look for a target. Because they feel abraded by the information, they label the deliverer of the information as abrasive. That's silly, but it's their problem.

    Again, to make it easier to understand what is going on: Your opinion is that your delivery is simple and direct. You may think this is true, but others do not. You are in no position to gainsay on how other people perceive you.
    No. My delivery is simple and direct, and also, other people perceive information that conflicts with their desires, simply and directly delivered, as irritating. Because they can't lash out at information, they vent their displeasure at the messenger. Again, this is their issue.

    Some seem very concerned about excelling in popularity contests; I have no interest in that.
    And yet here you are, still arguing your point from a position of narrow-minded self-assurance that you are right and everyone else is wrong (concerning the why of their disgruntlement - which just for the record is NOT due to the likely factual content of your submissions to this thread).
    I understand that you might argue for your position due to a desire to be popular, but projecting that onto me is misplaced. When I delivered my opinion in a simple and direct manner -- "nice pen, though a mismatch; there's no evidence the Crest Masterpiece was offered in any color other than black" -- some people were disgruntled by the information, and they reacted with snark, nastiness, and fabrications. I'm not interested in becoming popular with people who struggle to assimilate information that doesn't comply with their desires or biases. Others have a different reaction, I suppose.

    Although there remains the tiniest of chances such a non-black Crest Masterpiece pen could have existed, I imagine most people here (myself included) are accepting of your 'expert' opinion on this. Those facts, as you presented, are in little to no doubt. it is your delivery that has triggered the reaction. If you cannot see this, or most likely don't wish to acknowledge that this could be the case... well, it demonstrates an unfortunate lack of self-reflection.
    My delivery: "Nice pen, though a mismatch; there's no evidence the Crest Masterpiece was offered in any color other than black."

    People who don't like learning things that don't match their desires will react with attacks. People who have no such impediment to learning -- and there are those here, too, in case there's some sort of false impression that they don't exist -- appreciate my simple, direct delivery. You can't please everyone, and I'm satisfied with the second group described.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Hard to imagine someone being as tone deaf as what you are displaying here. Essentially you are a speaker who has no skill in gauging an audience.


    Here's an example of how you could have worded the original without ruffling feathers.

    Hi Fred, that sure is a great looking pen. I've not yet come across a non-black bodied Masterpiece in my study of Sheaffer history. It's possible that it could be off-catalogue, but I don't know for sure. Did the seller give any clues about provenance? Either way it still a super nice pen
    Now you may think this is unnecessarily flowery, but in a casual forum - which is what this place mostly is - this kind of approach is more likely to get your message across and stimulate further discussion.


    And finally, the simple facts:

    1. You pissed off a bunch of us.
    2. You don't understand why.
    3. You were told why.
    4. You don't accept our explanation of why.
    5. You prefer your self-grooming explanation.

    Remember the last time I asked you to tell me how to think? Yeah, me neither.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; December 13th, 2019 at 08:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    I'm still reading.

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