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Thread: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Reading through these arguments remind me of shave forums where old Gillette models are identified with the case and not the razor. It can be confusing. Many times a person finds their dream razor only to have the other forum members explain it's in the wrong box. I sometimes think the factory might used whatever box was available at the end of the run. Perhaps this is true for this fine looking fountain pen. Perhaps its a prototype. In the end, members who rain on someone's parade and claim to be an expert makes actual discussion a chore. I trust the OP will be able to fully enjoy their prized FP. Cheers.

    Often, the experts can't agree.
    Sometimes, facts and logic produce conclusions that feel like rain. Shooting the messenger doesn't stop the rain.

    Perhaps it's a prototype. Of course, this possibility can be applied to anything, leading to the baseless conclusion that no opinions can ever be rendered about the originality or correctness of any object. That's just silly. Luckily, Occam's (not Gillette's) Razor helps us with this.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fill, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    The pissing contests are profoundly annoying. There are many ways to pass along information, to teach, to share. The best ways aren't being modeled here.

    If the primary goal is establishing dominance, then the primary goal isn't educating the proto-collector and the thread becomes more noise than signal.
    You'll note that a pissing contest is generally construed as a debate between or among people claiming knowledge and reaching different conclusions. Notably, that's not happening here at all. I offered my opinion and a summary of the reasoning behind it. Fred seemed upset with that, and someone else made up a bunch of nonsense I didn't say and then attacked me for it, so that caused an unfortunate digression, but the central matter is merely that there's no evidence that Sheaffer offered a model in the configuration shown here. If anyone has facts to the contrary, I'd be interested to learn of them, and I'm sure others would as well.

    Learning where the White Dot is on this pen would add to the discussion.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    What is a “model”? Is it always something in the catalogs?
    Not at all, as experienced collectors and researchers know all too well. It's a product produced by the maker (or its agent) in a particular form.

    Say there were Sheaffer products not listed in the catalogs. Catalog fundamentalism would then prioritize the output of the Sheaffer sales department over the shop floor.
    No sufficiently experienced collector thinks that a pen model is only considered correct if it appears in a catalog. I own probably hundreds of pens that are not known to have been cataloged, but which are surely products of the company.

    Alternatively, we could assume that in Sheaffer’s long history that production was entirely according to The Plan, that all products were listed, and that all the lists are extant. ln this case, we would certainly trust the documents over the pens. But how reasonable is it to make such assumptions?
    Again, I know of no reasonably experienced collector who believes that only instruments that appeared in catalogs were issued by pen companies' factories.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Dear Daniel Kirchheimer

    My English skills are far from being able to take part in a contest (which would never be my wish either).
    Nevertheless, I would like to ask you to think about what a discussion like the one taking place here sends for a signal to the outside of this forum, but also to other forum members.
    Aren't it just collectors who want to share their fountain pens with others (more or less knowledgeable) those who make up a forum like this?
    Will they rather not show pictures of their pens in the future because they fear a derailment like this?
    Just a thought.

    Christof Zollinger
    Last edited by christof; December 3rd, 2019 at 10:34 AM.

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    Senior Member azkid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fill, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    You'll note that a pissing contest is generally construed as a debate between or among people claiming knowledge and reaching different conclusions.
    Pissing contest, noun

    A contest or rivalry in which the main concern of the parties involved is the conspicuous demonstration of superiority.

    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pissing_contest

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    There comes a point where the "ignore" option becomes ever more attractive.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    There comes a point where the "ignore" option becomes ever more attractive.
    Nah. Even Court Jesters have their place.
    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    There comes a point where the "ignore" option becomes ever more attractive.
    Nah. Even Court Jesters have their place.
    You make a good point.
    Regards,
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fill, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    You'll note that a pissing contest is generally construed as a debate between or among people claiming knowledge and reaching different conclusions.
    Pissing contest, noun

    A contest or rivalry in which the main concern of the parties involved is the conspicuous demonstration of superiority.

    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pissing_contest
    An excellent definition, and not at all what happened in this thread. I offered an expert opinion, and someone else made u a bunch of stuff that I hadn't said and then he attacked me for those fabrications (which he eventually sort-of retracted). Did calamus conspicuously demonstrate superiority? No. Was my main concern to demonstrate superiority? Clearly not; it was to offer and explain an opinion (and then to expose a fallacious attack).

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by christof View Post
    Dear Daniel Kirchheimer

    My English skills are far from being able to take part in a contest (which would never be my wish either).
    Nevertheless, I would like to ask you to think about what a discussion like the one taking place here sends for a signal to the outside of this forum, but also to other forum members.
    Aren't it just collectors who want to share their fountain pens with others (more or less knowledgeable) those who make up a forum like this?
    Will they rather not show pictures of their pens in the future because they fear a derailment like this?
    Just a thought.

    Christof Zollinger
    I agree -- people who want to show and learn about pens might hesitate when they see that others discussing pen information are subjected to repeated baseless attacks. So, your comment is most sensibly directed to any parties who have engaged in those attacks.

    --Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    I would wager that if you took a poll on the matter, the majority would not see that aspect of it.
    Also known as: Eeyore, and the misanthrope*

    *because apparently 36 years working in health care, from primary care through to pathology services and now human health research, means I must surely hate all humanity.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I would wager that if you took a poll on the matter, the majority would not see that aspect of it.
    Fortunately, reason is not determined through popularity contests.

    —Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    No, but popularity is. In this kind of environment, how you deliver your information is just as important as the content. Teaching 101 really.
    Also known as: Eeyore, and the misanthrope*

    *because apparently 36 years working in health care, from primary care through to pathology services and now human health research, means I must surely hate all humanity.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    No, but popularity is. In this kind of environment, how you deliver your information is just as important as the content. Teaching 101 really.
    I don’t post information about pens to be popular, and I delivered my opinion in a simple, direct manner. When met with snark, nastiness, and fabrications of what I’d said, I did not respond in kind.

    It’s interesting how people sometimes fail to see the reality that is in front of them.

    —Daniel
    “Every discussion which is made from an egoistic standpoint is corrupted from the start and cannot yield an absolutely sure conclusion. The ego puts its own interest first and twists every argument, word, even fact to suit that interest.”
    ― Paul Brunton, The Notebooks of Paul Brunton

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Crest Masterpiece - Vac-Fil, 14k Gold Cap

    You may think you are offering an "opinion in a simple, direct manner"; that is not how it is taken by others on this thread. They are not offering "snark, nastiness, and fabrications" just for the hell of it. The manner of your delivery in this thread has been perceived by others as unnecessarily combative (there are other adjectives, but this is probably the most encompassing one), and people have reacted accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    No, but popularity is. In this kind of environment, how you deliver your information is just as important as the content. Teaching 101 really.
    I don’t post information about pens to be popular, and I delivered my opinion in a simple, direct manner. When met with snark, nastiness, and fabrications of what I’d said, I did not respond in kind.

    It’s interesting how people sometimes fail to see the reality that is in front of them.

    —Daniel

    It's interesting how people sometimes make a statement about others without ever noticing how it applies to themselves.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; December 7th, 2019 at 12:21 AM.
    Also known as: Eeyore, and the misanthrope*

    *because apparently 36 years working in health care, from primary care through to pathology services and now human health research, means I must surely hate all humanity.

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