"break in" period? Is it just me?

[Deb]

Pressing down on a dry writer to separate the tines, slight misalignment (one tine higher than the other) might be correcting itself through use. None of that is “break in” though.

I'm the OP and *this* is what I was meaning to say. I notice all my pens seem to flow better after some flexing (separating of the tines). It might take one writing period, or it might take a week or two.

Mook

In my experience, this (dry writers) is not uncommon - and I’ll disagree with Jon a little here. Pen companies that buy Bock and Jowo nibs in bulk usually just screw them in and package it.

Anyway, pressing the pen hard to paper (or other surface) can be an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues (I do it). Over doing it can spread the tines too far apart, misalign them, or bend the nib so that it’s too high above the feed. The biggest problem is that you’re not controlling where the nib is bending.

I wouldn't regard pressing the pen hard to paper or another surface as an appropriate corrective method. Fountain pen nibs were never intended to be used in that way. There are other, really appropriate ways of dealing with flow issues. How do you know when you're "overdoing it?" I see the results of nib abuse through too much pressure being applied all too often. It just isn't a repair method.

[mookie2112]

I'm the OP and *this* is what I was meaning to say. I notice all my pens seem to flow better after some flexing (separating of the tines). It might take one writing period, or it might take a week or two.

Mook

I have to be honest, Mook, and I hope that's ok: this is an indication of poorly made pens, or pens that have been sent out in sub-optimal condition. This is not something one should have to do when receiving a pen and it is not how good pens are made. I'm not saying that an occasional pen may not need an adjustment to suit your particular writing preferences, and there are a number of people who sell their pens and ask how you want it "set up" before sending to you. That said, no quality pen requires this effort. Receiving a sub-par pen and doing things to it to become a good writer is one thing, but a habitual expectation of "breaking in" a pen through pressured writing or other process efforts is not, or should not be, common practice.

Not every pen.....just some of them. Some of these Indian pens write like a dream out of the box....others take some coaxing.....

[dneal]

Pressing down on a dry writer to separate the tines, slight misalignment (one tine higher than the other) might be correcting itself through use. None of that is “break in” though.

I'm the OP and *this* is what I was meaning to say. I notice all my pens seem to flow better after some flexing (separating of the tines). It might take one writing period, or it might take a week or two.

Mook

In my experience, this (dry writers) is not uncommon - and I’ll disagree with Jon a little here. Pen companies that buy Bock and Jowo nibs in bulk usually just screw them in and package it.

Anyway, pressing the pen hard to paper (or other surface) can be an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues (I do it). Over doing it can spread the tines too far apart, misalign them, or bend the nib so that it’s too high above the feed. The biggest problem is that you’re not controlling where the nib is bending.

I wouldn't regard pressing the pen hard to paper or another surface as an appropriate corrective method. Fountain pen nibs were never intended to be used in that way. There are other, really appropriate ways of dealing with flow issues. How do you know when you're "overdoing it?" I see the results of nib abuse through too much pressure being applied all too often. It just isn't a repair method.

Your post is a little confusing. I’m not saying write with a great deal of pressure. I’m saying applying pressure is a method of raising the tines, which spreads them apart due to the geometry. There’s a fine line between springing the nib and getting a little adjustment. At any rate, you don’t have to see it as appropriate; and I don’t have to see it as inappropriate. There are lots of ways to manipulate nibs for flow and alignment, and they all involve stressing the metal. Pressing down is one way. It’s useful in some circumstances for me. Lots of people screw up their nibs with mylar sheets and buff sticks. That doesn't mean those items have no utility and shouldn't be used.

That said, I’m pretty sure vintage nibs - which were usually flexible before carbon paper introduced a different requirement - were in fact intended to be used that way. You might revisit your “never” statement.

[dneal]

Pen companies that buy Bock and Jowo nibs in bulk usually just screw them in and package it.

This is what I meant regarding "sub-optimal" condition when shipping a pen. I don't give *anyone* a pass for simply installing a part without at least minimal attention to see that it works well. Maybe that is just me expecting too much, but there you go.

I agree that it shouldn't be expecting too much, particularly when one spends a hundred or hundreds of dollars on a pen. But it still happens more frequently than not, based on personal experience and lots of interwebz reading. The lesson the new enthusiast should take from the problem is that there is great value in a local pen store. Most of the online retailers (I won't name them) just receive and ship boxes that happen to have pen

...Pen companies that buy Bock and Jowo nibs in bulk usually just screw them in and package it....

Well, there has to be exceptions. Almost three years ago, I bought a Conid Minimalistica with two Conid-branded steel nibs that I understand are made by Bock. I wrote with the M for many months, and swapped in the F two years ago. I don't know what Conid does to their nibs' tipping or temper, but they are a joy to use. Doesn't Franklin-Christoph and Edison Pen Company use Jowo nibs? The several Edisons I've owned over the years were personally tuned by either Brian Gray or Richard Binder as part of the purchase. I owned one F-C with a wide stub steel nib, and it went through the late Jim Rouse's tuning skill before it was handed over.

Certainly there are exceptions, but the sellers that check and tune nibs before they ship out their pens aren't absolving the factories' often mediocre quality control. That's why - as I replied to Jon - new enthusiasts in particular should buy from those businesses that do ensure the product works well - or buy Japanese pens which have a much better average in "out of the box usability", in my limited experience.

I've got a tray of 4 new, 18k Bock nibs in front of me now. Looking through a loupe, I can see that 3 of the 4 need adjustment. There is absolutely no gap between the tines. They're not going to write as-is.

[Deb]

Pressing down on a dry writer to separate the tines, slight misalignment (one tine higher than the other) might be correcting itself through use. None of that is “break in” though.

I'm the OP and *this* is what I was meaning to say. I notice all my pens seem to flow better after some flexing (separating of the tines). It might take one writing period, or it might take a week or two.

Mook

In my experience, this (dry writers) is not uncommon - and I’ll disagree with Jon a little here. Pen companies that buy Bock and Jowo nibs in bulk usually just screw them in and package it.

Anyway, pressing the pen hard to paper (or other surface) can be an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues (I do it). Over doing it can spread the tines too far apart, misalign them, or bend the nib so that it’s too high above the feed. The biggest problem is that you’re not controlling where the nib is bending.

I wouldn't regard pressing the pen hard to paper or another surface as an appropriate corrective method. Fountain pen nibs were never intended to be used in that way. There are other, really appropriate ways of dealing with flow issues. How do you know when you're "overdoing it?" I see the results of nib abuse through too much pressure being applied all too often. It just isn't a repair method.

Your post is a little confusing. I’m not saying write with a great deal of pressure. I’m saying applying pressure is a method of raising the tines, which spreads them apart due to the geometry. There’s a fine line between springing the nib and getting a little adjustment. At any rate, you don’t have to see it as appropriate; and I don’t have to see it as inappropriate. There are lots of ways to manipulate nibs for flow and alignment, and they all involve stressing the metal. Pressing down is one way. It’s useful in some circumstances for me. Lots of people screw up their nibs with mylar sheets and buff sticks. That doesn't mean those items have no utility and shouldn't be used.

That said, I’m pretty sure vintage nibs - which were usually flexible before carbon paper introduced a different requirement - were in fact intended to be used that way. You might revisit your “never” statement.

Don't twist what I said. I said nothing about writing with pressure. I said, "pressing the pen hard to paper or another surface." And using vintage flex is very different from mangling any nib with undue pressure under the delusion that you're "repairing" it.

[dneal]

Don't twist what I said. I said nothing about writing with pressure. I said, "pressing the pen hard to paper or another surface." And using vintage flex is very different from mangling any nib with undue pressure under the delusion that you're "repairing" it.

Unbunch yer knickers. I didn't twist what you said, and I began by saying your post was a little confusing.

And lighten up with the "mangling" nibs with "undue pressure" and "delusional" bull shit. The thing I like about this board is that it's usually free of the elitists. I don't claim to be a nib-meister, but I think I've demonstrated that I have some idea of what I'm talking about; and put my money where my mouth is. Ask Jon how he likes the nibs I ground and adjusted.

[Jon Szanto]

Jon will say two things:

1. dneal made a couple of world-class nibs out of standard stuff, nibs I still enjoy to this day
2. You people play nice, now! I don't want to have friends on both sides of a non-existent conflict.

There.

[Deb]

Don't twist what I said. I said nothing about writing with pressure. I said, "pressing the pen hard to paper or another surface." And using vintage flex is very different from mangling any nib with undue pressure under the delusion that you're "repairing" it.

Unbunch yer knickers. I didn't twist what you said, and I began by saying your post was a little confusing.

And lighten up with the "mangling" nibs with "undue pressure" and "delusional" bull shit. The thing I like about this board is that it's usually free of the elitists. I don't claim to be a nib-meister, but I think I've demonstrated that I have some idea of what I'm talking about; and put my money where my mouth is. Ask Jon how he likes the nibs I ground and adjusted.

Unbunch yer knickers? Sexism now, I see. You apparently deliberately misquoted me. I see no apology for that. As regards squashing nibs to spread the tines, it's just foolishness. You're applying downward pressure to apply an outward spread. It may achieve that, but at what other cost. If you need to spread the tines, just spread them. I would have thought it was simple enough.

[Chrissy]

"pressing the pen hard to paper (or other surface) can be an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues (I do it)."

You say this, but I don't use it as an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues either.
I believe that you are an experienced nib-meister, who can correct many problems with nibs. Beginners, "pressing the pen hard to paper", might do much more damage to a nib than you might expect them to, and it might, therefore, be inappropriate for them to do it since they don't possess the skills that you possess.

[stub]

It also can pull the nib away from the feed. fwiw

[dneal]

"pressing the pen hard to paper (or other surface) can be an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues (I do it)."

You say this, but I don't use it as an appropriate way to correct minor flow issues either.
I believe that you are an experienced nib-meister, who can correct many problems with nibs. Beginners, "pressing the pen hard to paper", might do much more damage to a nib than you might expect them to, and it might, therefore, be inappropriate for them to do it since they don't possess the skills that you possess.

Waahhh, you’re misquoting me!!! lol.

Seriously though, I agree that it can cause problems as well; and I believe I mentioned increasing the height of the nib above the feed (as noted by stub below) was one of them. Beginners are going to screw up all kinds of stuff. I can’t imagine how many flat spots have been created from micro mesh and the like. If you want to learn to do things, you pays your money and take your chances - and learn.

Tines that are too tight usually need to be pulled apart. That usually happens at the “wings” of the nib. That also usually creates an inverted ‘v’ that needs corrected too, and misaligns the tines more often than not. A nib that needs just a little more flow can get that by pressing down on it / flexing it slightly.

Aligning tines can be problematic. At the end of the day, you are bending them. Richard Binder’s excellent ‘nib tuning’ instructions can be done improperly too, but that doesn’t mean that he’s wrong or that his techniques are “just never done” because some nibs have been mangled.

It also can pull the nib away from the feed. fwiw

[dneal]

Unbunch yer knickers? Sexism now, I see. You apparently deliberately misquoted me. I see no apology for that. As regards squashing nibs to spread the tines, it's just foolishness. You're applying downward pressure to apply an outward spread. It may achieve that, but at what other cost. If you need to spread the tines, just spread them. I would have thought it was simple enough.

I’m happy to use that phrase to either gender. Not sexist at all.

Look, you’re the one who introduced the rudeness into the thread. 32 years in the Army was a master-class in rude and vulgar language. We can go there if you’d like, but I can assure you that you won’t. I’d much prefer civil discussion without degrading other posters. It’s up to you.

I explained the rest (regarding nib spreading and such) in my reply to Chrissy.

[Deb]

Men don't wear knickers. I enjoy intelligent and reasoned debate but you don't appear to have much of the first and are not amenable to the latter. Carry on squashing nibs. I'm done with you.

[dneal]

Men don't wear knickers. I enjoy intelligent and reasoned debate but you don't appear to have much of the first and are not amenable to the latter. Carry on squashing nibs. I'm done with you.

Thanks! Have fun with your little online flea market of unremarkable pens and feigned “pen restorer” expertise!

[stub]

I like the folks here. I have no doubt of value of dneal's knowhow and just as little about deb's as well. I can still see the objections to dneal's suggestion but I also see what dneal's ultimate point was that "there are lots of ways to manipulate nibs for flow and alignment, and they all involve stressing the metal." I think there was some crossed wires at this point that could have been mended.

Deb took some offense back at post #45 and was short but still civil. I think #46 is where things went off the rails if I am being honest. I think if you dispassionately read from page 3 here you can see that it didn't have to go this way. I think where we have ended here is just an unnecessary swipe at Deb's business and knowledge.

Sorry it ended this way, I think there was an opportunity missed to turn down the heat and get back to the topic at hand. Still, belittling Deb's store and knowledge was wrong and a step beyond what she wrote. imo.

You know, since we have to moderate ourselves and such...

[dneal]

I like the folks here. I have no doubt of value of dneal's knowhow and just as little about deb's as well. I can still see the objections to dneal's suggestion but I also see what dneal's ultimate point was that "there are lots of ways to manipulate nibs for flow and alignment, and they all involve stressing the metal." I think there was some crossed wires at this point that could have been mended.

Deb took some offense back at post #45 and was short but still civil. I think #46 is where things went off the rails if I am being honest. I think if you dispassionately read from page 3 here you can see that it didn't have to go this way. I think where we have ended here is just an unnecessary swipe at Deb's business and knowledge.

Sorry it ended this way, I think there was an opportunity missed to turn down the heat and get back to the topic at hand. Still, belittling Deb's store and knowledge was wrong and a step beyond what she wrote. imo.

You know, since we have to moderate ourselves and such...

I'll make one more comment, try to de-escalate, and then I'm done.

I have no problem with civil disagreement. Chrissy's post is a great example. She disagrees, and notes the danger of new users taking a bit of internet advice and things going wrong. I can't disagree with her on that. Still, people are going to experiment. They're going to make mistakes. It's human nature, and it's one way we learn. Lord knows I've screwed up plenty of nibs. My only fortune was that I chose to experiment with cheap nibs until I had the confidence to mess with expensive ones.

I found deb's comments laced with subtle condescension. I ignored it at first. It became less subtle. There are a few things I don't tolerate, and bullies are one of them. They get a warning, and then they get a punch in the nose (virtual or actual). I'm ok with the consequences of that. I can also drink a beer with the person afterwards and forget that the conflict happened. Maybe that's just a man thing...

It irks me a little that "experts" think their way is the only way. FPN is horrible for that, and usually the "experts" also have mod powers, or friends with mod powers. That's what I like about FP Geeks. If you show your ass, it can get spanked (myself included). Rosin and castor oil is mixed and used as thread sealant (Omas in particular comes to mind). I hate removing sections that have been shellacked. I mixed some rosin/castor oil in a high rosin ratio, and tried that instead. It worked, and worked well. A little messy to apply, but the section held firm yet is easy to remove. The "experts" at FPN piled on that it's "just not done", and we should defer to their expertise. Any dissent was deleted. Readers don't get to see both arguments and decide for themselves.

I'm sorry that things escalated. That kind of stuff happens on the web. It's not that big of a deal to me. I'm not sorry for what I say in response to an arrogant or shitty attitude. I'm quite capable of letting bygones be bygones.

BTW, the fact that men don't wear knickers is precisely what makes it an appropriate comment (actually, even better) for men.

[stub]

I personally like that this board gets a little rough and tumble. I don't mind things even getting a little heated but I think we shouldn't pass a certain line towards belittling and name calling etc. (I'm speaking in the abstract here). I like that things are more adult here.

What can I say, it isn't up to me to police anything but no one likes it when their parents fight. Haha. Come on. It's either here or that fucking sewer fpn. Let's play nice(ish).

[FredRydr]

Jon will say two things:

1. dneal made a couple of world-class nibs out of standard stuff, nibs I still enjoy to this day
2. You people play nice, now! I don't want to have friends on both sides of a non-existent conflict.

There.

You have friends?

[Jon Szanto]

You have friends?

A handful. They seem to not listen to me, or care. I really wanted to start this day rancor-free. <sigh>

[FredRydr]

You have friends?

A handful. They seem to not listen to me, or care. I really wanted to start this day rancor-free. <sigh>