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Thread: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    After reading through this, I realized I just wasted 10 minutes of my life on something that is meaningless.

    An editor I once worked with used to require that every piece of writing pass the "So what?" test. This thread doesn't, at least for me.

    Perhaps naive younger people are more "convenient" than cranky, old men!
    Perhaps as the OP I can help you understand "so what". This is a fountain pen forum where expensive pens are discussed, purchased, repaired, and worried about. Any reasonable person would have to ask why when a Pilot Precise V5 is readily available for the purpose of written communication. You'll probably list some justification for using a fountain pen. Whatever it is, it is simply a tool for writing down your thoughts. My point is that a dip pen can perform just as well, but not as convenient. And, as an added bonus, it will cost you about the same as a couple of the Pilot pens I mentioned. Hope that helps and sorry as heck for wasting your time.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    After reading through this, I realized I just wasted 10 minutes of my life on something that is meaningless.

    An editor I once worked with used to require that every piece of writing pass the "So what?" test. This thread doesn't, at least for me.

    Perhaps naive younger people are more "convenient" than cranky, old men!
    Perhaps as the OP I can help you understand "so what". This is a fountain pen forum where expensive pens are discussed, purchased, repaired, and worried about. Any reasonable person would have to ask why when a Pilot Precise V5 is readily available for the purpose of written communication. You'll probably list some justification for using a fountain pen. Whatever it is, it is simply a tool for writing down your thoughts. My point is that a dip pen can perform just as well, but not as convenient. And, as an added bonus, it will cost you about the same as a couple of the Pilot pens I mentioned. Hope that helps and sorry as heck for wasting your time.
    That statement in bold above is what I do not agree with you about (which is fine with me).

    Sure, modern fountain pens can be categorized as a "just a writing tool", because if it's broken or lost, you can just go online and order another one.

    But some vintage ones can't, at least not to me. When I show a very old safety pen (the one with retractable nib) from the early 1900's to a group of artists last Saturday, not one of them said "Well, that's cool, but in the end, it's just a writing / drawing tool". They all marvel that it can still be restored and write again, one century after it's made. Even more so when I explain to them how I restored it back to life -- which is not as easy as changing an old ink sac.

    So you can't make a general statement saying that fountain pens are "just writing tools" because there are people who appreciate it beyond that.
    - Will
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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    After reading through this, I realized I just wasted 10 minutes of my life on something that is meaningless.

    An editor I once worked with used to require that every piece of writing pass the "So what?" test. This thread doesn't, at least for me.

    Perhaps naive younger people are more "convenient" than cranky, old men!
    Perhaps as the OP I can help you understand "so what". This is a fountain pen forum where expensive pens are discussed, purchased, repaired, and worried about. Any reasonable person would have to ask why when a Pilot Precise V5 is readily available for the purpose of written communication. You'll probably list some justification for using a fountain pen. Whatever it is, it is simply a tool for writing down your thoughts. My point is that a dip pen can perform just as well, but not as convenient. And, as an added bonus, it will cost you about the same as a couple of the Pilot pens I mentioned. Hope that helps and sorry as heck for wasting your time.
    That statement in bold above is what I do not agree with you about (which is fine with me).

    Sure, modern fountain pens can be categorized as a "just a writing tool", because if it's broken or lost, you can just go online and order another one.

    But some vintage ones can't, at least not to me. When I show a very old safety pen (the one with retractable nib) from the early 1900's to a group of artists last Saturday, not one of them said "Well, that's cool, but in the end, it's just a writing / drawing tool". They all marvel that it can still be restored and write again, one century after it's made. Even more so when I explain to them how I restored it back to life -- which is not as easy as changing an old ink sac.

    So you can't make a general statement saying that fountain pens are "just writing tools" because there are people who appreciate it beyond that.
    Well, that statement in context was a response to someone who felt I wasted their time and said "so what".

    I agree with everything you wrote. I am very happy with the 1930 and 1940 Esterbrooks I am able use daily, the Parker 21 that's now being used, and the 1942 Parker 51 that I learned was shipped. That said, the #14 Bank, Falcon, and Jackson Esty nibs used with an old abused, but smooth holder is a joy to experience what was used before the advent of the fountain pen and why I started the thread. I just wanted to say after using, the dip pens are very good for daily communication and penmanship quality if you don't mind the inconvenience.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    To the OP, what does 'convenient' mean in the context of this thread?

    If on the move then sure, an FP will be most likely be more convenient. Sitting at a permanent desk? No difference. Writing for extended lengths of time? A dip pen could be less fatiguing because of the stopping and stretching when dipping. Maybe.

    In terms of use alone, which is how I took the OP, both are simply tools to achieve a certain kind of result, and as such both have their place and are interchangeable if one is happy to accommodate their idiosyncrasies.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I just wanted to say after using, the dip pens are very good for daily communication and penmanship quality if you don't mind the inconvenience.
    I too, have used dip pens, and I came out with almost the opposite conclusion. I don't find dip nibs "nice" to use at all. They are scratchy and grating to write with. About the only time I find a use for them is when I, every 1-2 years, buy a dozen of ink samples from Vanness, and yes, it's nice to be able to sample those inks without having to wash the nib and feed each time.

    Yes they are flexible, but I have fountain pen nibs that are equally flexible, made in the same era, and I can smooth the nib, so I actually looking forward to write (sketch in my case) with it.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    So you can't make a general statement saying that fountain pens are "just writing tools" because there are people who appreciate it beyond that.
    But there are also people who appreciate dip pens beyond that, too. Heavens, look how people can get quite animated over the humble wooden cased pencil.

    I also think there's a danger here of taking Dip Pen = Fine and Flexy. Not all dip pens are either fine, flexible, or even steel.

    Now personally I do enjoy writing with a dip pen, and actually got back into FPs as a result of seeking a slightly more convenient alternative. Goodness me, how that backfired... I'm horribly out of practice though, because my desk is seldom safely clear enough to have a pot of ink standing about on in. So yes, less convenient by far in my experience. But they're lovely and lightweight, there's a mind boggling array of nib styles, readily swapped one for another, and there's nothing mechanically to go wrong. The closest I've ever got to the enjoyment of a dip pen is probably a Waterman #22 taper cap, which was essentially trying to be a dip pen. Thus I suppose I agree with the OP.
    Last edited by grainweevil; February 18th, 2020 at 02:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I just wanted to say after using, the dip pens are very good for daily communication and penmanship quality if you don't mind the inconvenience.
    I too, have used dip pens, and I came out with almost the opposite conclusion. I don't find dip nibs "nice" to use at all. They are scratchy and grating to write with. About the only time I find a use for them is when I, every 1-2 years, buy a dozen of ink samples from Vanness, and yes, it's nice to be able to sample those inks without having to wash the nib and feed each time.

    Yes they are flexible, but I have fountain pen nibs that are equally flexible, made in the same era, and I can smooth the nib, so I actually looking forward to write (sketch in my case) with it.
    I have the three Esterbrook nibs mention, the #14 Bank, 048 Falcon, and the Jackson 442, and use the same two Waterman ink I use for the fountain pens. Little if any pressure is needed so they are not scratchy. I've written three letters. The only inconvenience is that I need to clean and dry the nibs after use. While I am still learning, my daughter commented my penmanship has improved since I started writing her and the grandchildren letters last year.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    I hope other members who have not considered dip pens, especially the vintage one made by Esterbrook, will give them a try. Here is an excellent resource.
    https://theesterbrookproject.com/INDEX.html

    My nib holder is made of wood with a metal nib holder I got when I bought an auction. Nothing special. Might have paid $3. I use a piece of rubber dish washing glove to insert and remove the nib, gently and carefully not to damage the nib. I paid around $20 for 10 Falcon 048 and 12 442 Jackson nibs total. I paid $7 for the #14 Bank nibs. What's cool is that Charles Shultz used the 914 Radio nib.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I just wanted to say after using, the dip pens are very good for daily communication and penmanship quality if you don't mind the inconvenience.
    I too, have used dip pens, and I came out with almost the opposite conclusion. I don't find dip nibs "nice" to use at all. They are scratchy and grating to write with. About the only time I find a use for them is when I, every 1-2 years, buy a dozen of ink samples from Vanness, and yes, it's nice to be able to sample those inks without having to wash the nib and feed each time.

    Yes they are flexible, but I have fountain pen nibs that are equally flexible, made in the same era, and I can smooth the nib, so I actually looking forward to write (sketch in my case) with it.
    I have the three Esterbrook nibs mention, the #14 Bank, 048 Falcon, and the Jackson 442, and use the same two Waterman ink I use for the fountain pens. Little if any pressure is needed so they are not scratchy. I've written three letters. The only inconvenience is that I need to clean and dry the nibs after use. While I am still learning, my daughter commented my penmanship has improved since I started writing her and the grandchildren letters last year.
    Sure, Esterbrook ones may not be scratchy, but they are also not flexible.

    I thought we are talking about flexible ones.

    I have the Brause, Hunt, Joseph Gillet. All of them have excellent flexibility, but also are scratchy compared to my 14k Moore, Wirt, John Holland, even Ingersoll vintage flex fountain pen nibs.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Not all dip pens have to be dipped every couple of words. The Sheaffer Fineline Division made desk dip pens for public institutions, like the Postal Service, court offices, etc. that had fountain pen feeds and nibs. Sengbusch, ditto. These will write a half letter-size page on a dip.

    Besides that, once you get used to the discipline of dipping while writing, you hardly notice it. It is like driving a car with a "standard" transmission. You don't need the speedometer or tachometer; you hear the engine and see your speed over the ground and shifting becomes unnoticed.

    Dip pen nibs do not have to be scratchy. You can smooth them. I have a magnetic strip with about a dozen nibs stuck to it (there is even one with 5 little nibs for drawing sheet music.). If I happen to buy a writing pad with really lousy paper, there are a couple of nibs for that, smooth and ready to go.

    I only have about 50 fountain pens left, but I use them most of the time. The dip pens are only part of the arsenal.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I just wanted to say after using, the dip pens are very good for daily communication and penmanship quality if you don't mind the inconvenience.
    I too, have used dip pens, and I came out with almost the opposite conclusion. I don't find dip nibs "nice" to use at all. They are scratchy and grating to write with. About the only time I find a use for them is when I, every 1-2 years, buy a dozen of ink samples from Vanness, and yes, it's nice to be able to sample those inks without having to wash the nib and feed each time.

    Yes they are flexible, but I have fountain pen nibs that are equally flexible, made in the same era, and I can smooth the nib, so I actually looking forward to write (sketch in my case) with it.
    I have the three Esterbrook nibs mention, the #14 Bank, 048 Falcon, and the Jackson 442, and use the same two Waterman ink I use for the fountain pens. Little if any pressure is needed so they are not scratchy. I've written three letters. The only inconvenience is that I need to clean and dry the nibs after use. While I am still learning, my daughter commented my penmanship has improved since I started writing her and the grandchildren letters last year.
    Sure, Esterbrook ones may not be scratchy, but they are also not flexible.

    I thought we are talking about flexible ones.

    I have the Brause, Hunt, Joseph Gillet. All of them have excellent flexibility, but also are scratchy compared to my 14k Moore, Wirt, John Holland, even Ingersoll vintage flex fountain pen nibs.
    I didn’t make a distinction, but the Falcon 042 has some flex for me.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    I love my Esterbrook Dip Less...it really does write a page or two, and uses regular Estie nibs.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Last night I did a use sampling of a second generation Parker 21, a Mitsubishi 9850, and a 048 Esterbrook Falcon nib. When I compared the three, the dip pen provided a more attractive, to me, result.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    I've tried several dip pen nibs including those mentioned above—Gillot's 404; Hunt 22 and 101; Brause 78 (rose), 361 (blue pumpkin); Leonhardt Principal EF; Nikko G; Zebra G;and Esterbrook 442/942, 815 School, and 048 Falcon.

    For practical, everyday writing, the 048 Falcon is still my favorite by far. I find they offer good line variation, ink capacity, ink retention, smoothness, and controllability. I found the Brause 361 to come close in all regards. Plus it looks cool as hell.

    I have two sets of 048s, one with extra slits to allow more flex with less pressure and these are my favorites.

    They flex just with regular writing pressure, offering nice variation in line width. They're really fun to use and don't seem to have much learning curve compared to almost all other nibs that I have tried.

    The less flexy ones work fine too just less line variation. In turn, those nibs are flexier than the Esterbrook Renew Point 9048, which is supposed to be the fountain pen equivalent.

    I also have the 442 Jackson Stub which I find to be an ideal width and very easy to use for normal writing.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    I've tried several dip pen nibs including those mentioned above—Gillot's 404; Hunt 22 and 101; Brause 78 (rose), 361 (blue pumpkin); Leonhardt Principal EF; Nikko G; Zebra G;and Esterbrook 442/942, 815 School, and 048 Falcon.

    For practical, everyday writing, the 048 Falcon is still my favorite by far. I find they offer good line variation, ink capacity, ink retention, smoothness, and controllability. I found the Brause 361 to come close in all regards. Plus it looks cool as hell.

    I have two sets of 048s, one with extra slits to allow more flex with less pressure and these are my favorites.

    They flex just with regular writing pressure, offering nice variation in line width. They're really fun to use and don't seem to have much learning curve compared to almost all other nibs that I have tried.

    The less flexy ones work fine too just less line variation. In turn, those nibs are flexier than the Esterbrook Renew Point 9048, which is supposed to be the fountain pen equivalent.

    I also have the 442 Jackson Stub which I find to be an ideal width and very easy to use for normal writing.
    Thank you for the heads up on the Brause 361.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    I had to write with dip pens for a few years in elementary school. I found them to be tedious, requiring about two to three dips per line, and my left hand had to go up to the right corner of the desk for each dip. I take a very dim view of dip pens. I couldn't care less if dip pens are thought to be superior in any way by people who have not been required to use them. Having to use them for everything might give such people a different perspective on dip pens.

    I tried one again a few years ago. I had come across a few boxes of dip pen nibs by Esterbrook and Hunt. My opinion of dip pens has not changed. They are an inconvenience without regard to their putative advantages. IMHO they are for specialist and hobbyist stuff. Read masochism.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    I had to write with dip pens for a few years in elementary school. I found them to be tedious, requiring about two to three dips per line, and my left hand had to go up to the right corner of the desk for each dip. I take a very dim view of dip pens. I couldn't care less if dip pens are thought to be superior in any way by people who have not been required to use them. Having to use them for everything might give such people a different perspective on dip pens.

    I tried one again a few years ago. I had come across a few boxes of dip pen nibs by Esterbrook and Hunt. My opinion of dip pens has not changed. They are an inconvenience without regard to their putative advantages. IMHO they are for specialist and hobbyist stuff. Read masochism.
    Something is wrong with having to dip two or three times. My Esterbrook nibs hold a good supply of ink.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    I find the dipping part is sufficiently slow to allow me to consider the next words carefully. One of the advantages of dip pens (IMNSHO) is that if you do pause for a think, you don't have to put a cap on the nib. So, overall, my writing with the dip tends to be both better constructed from a language and reasoning point view, and usually aesthetically more pleasing too. That's not to say that I want to use them everywhere of course.

    The Esterbrook 048 nibs are okay, nothing special to my mind. I have a ton of 442 stubs that I do like a bit, but there are plenty of non-Esterbrook nibs that offer a more pleasing experience for me.


    Two or three dips per line? Something wrong there, like nib not prepared properly.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    I had to write with dip pens for a few years in elementary school. I found them to be tedious, requiring about two to three dips per line, and my left hand had to go up to the right corner of the desk for each dip. I take a very dim view of dip pens. I couldn't care less if dip pens are thought to be superior in any way by people who have not been required to use them. Having to use them for everything might give such people a different perspective on dip pens.

    I tried one again a few years ago. I had come across a few boxes of dip pen nibs by Esterbrook and Hunt. My opinion of dip pens has not changed. They are an inconvenience without regard to their putative advantages. IMHO they are for specialist and hobbyist stuff. Read masochism.
    Well, I can tell you're scarred by the experience, pajaro. But I don't recall anyone arguing they're superior, and you seem to have made a strong case for inconvenience. However, I can't help feeling a large number of the population would readily apply your last few sentences to fountain pens too, arguably with equal validity.
    In the words of Paul Simon, you can call me Al.

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    Default Re: Fountain Pens More Convenient, but Not Superior to Dip Pens

    You can't really decide whether a new technique or technology is for you until you have tried it yourself. A kid's opinion of writing utensils doesn't count at all, and these opinions frequently carry over to adulthood. Many children are taught to write before they have developed the proper coordination for it. When someone wants to borrow my pen and sees that it is a fountain pen, it usually says something like, "Oh, we had to use those things in school. I used to make an inky mess of everything and catch hell for it. I am glad they invented the ballpoint." Well, I have used fountain pens almost all of my life and have yet to make an inky mess with one. I use dip pens, fountain pens, ballpoints, rollerballs, felt pens, quills, reeds, and glass pens. They all have places in the arsenal.

    Some of the "old ways" are still better than the new ones. I do my best cooking in cast iron and my baking in unglazed stoneware. I light my pipe with flint and steel and hunt with a stickbow and homemade arrows. But I used to shave with a cut-throat razor and now prefer the modern Bic. A gas furnace is better than a horse turd fire. And so it goes. You have to keep your curiosity active to find these things out.
    "Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little." -Epicurus-

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