Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Guidance requested.

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Newbury, MA
    Posts
    59
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Guidance requested.

    I've noticed a tendency on a couple of newly acquired pens to hesitate to start flow which first beginning to write. I assume this is due to a break in flow between the paper and the ink from sitting idle. I also notice that frequently they will also falter midstream of writing. Again is this normal? Is it technique, a fault of the ink/pen/paper combination, or something else? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,004
    Thanks
    2,407
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Given the information, it sounds like baby bottom. See Richard Binder's Nib Smoothing Notes

    One way to check is to try to write on cheap notebook paper or newspaper (the ink will feather a bunch, but that's not important for now).

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Newbury, MA
    Posts
    59
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Given the information, it sounds like baby bottom. See Richard Binder's Nib Smoothing Notes

    One way to check is to try to write on cheap notebook paper or newspaper (the ink will feather a bunch, but that's not important for now).
    Thanks for the link; I'll take a look at it.

    One other question which I forgot to mention. Has any one a technique for switching cartridges (to change ink) and saving the partially used cartridge or is throwing them away the only option?

    Thanks again for the help.

  4. #4
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    NOT baby bottom. Leave the nib alone.

    Converters are more susceptible to vapor lock that either cartridge or piston. The issue is surface tension. As ink is drawn out of the converter a bubble of air is drawn in. Often surface tension is sufficient to let the air bubble sit right at the entrance to the converter which stops ink flow.

    The solution is usually pretty simple, take a wood tooth pick and quickly dip it into some dish detergent and then poke it momentarily into the bottle of ink then fill the converter. The problem goes away.

    Warning Warning Will Robinson. LESS is more. You want to just add the very lest amount of surfactant, not even a drop in a full bottle of ink.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    Lady Onogaro (April 14th, 2020), RuiFromUK (April 14th, 2020)

  6. #5
    Senior Member azkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,016
    Thanks
    3,725
    Thanked 1,703 Times in 822 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Which pens are we talking about?

    Also, what paper?

    It might be worth flushing the pens thoroughly. Doing so has helped a hard starting pen or two for me.

    In other cases the pens wrote fine with some ink and not others.

    In several cases the issue was baby's bottom.

  7. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Logan, UT
    Posts
    406
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 199 Times in 110 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    If they’re brand new pens, they may also benefit from a good cleaning. Some new pens have a little residue from manufacturing which can interfere with ink flow. Flushing with a good pen flush or a tiny amount of detergent and water could help.

  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    1,192
    Thanks
    443
    Thanked 494 Times in 330 Posts
    Rep Power
    7

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    NOT baby bottom. Leave the nib alone.

    Converters are more susceptible to vapor lock that either cartridge or piston. The issue is surface tension. As ink is drawn out of the converter a bubble of air is drawn in. Often surface tension is sufficient to let the air bubble sit right at the entrance to the converter which stops ink flow.

    The solution is usually pretty simple, take a wood tooth pick and quickly dip it into some dish detergent and then poke it momentarily into the bottle of ink then fill the converter. The problem goes away.

    Warning Warning Will Robinson. LESS is more. You want to just add the very lest amount of surfactant, not even a drop in a full bottle of ink.
    I am not adding my thoughts to be critical; only to add my approach.

    1) I flush the converter with a dilute solution of Dawn. If, after several flushes of the converter the pen is not performing as it should I flush the solution through the filling system too as per mulrich's post just above.

    2) I never, ever add anything to my ink. Nothing! Ever!!
    I am not condeming jar's practice, if he is happy with it, that is all which is important.
    All I'm saying is I would never do that..........

    Good luck!!

  9. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    51
    Thanked 244 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Is it technique, a fault of the ink/pen/paper combination, or something else?

    It could be any of these, all of them, more than one or something completely different.

    Several fixes to try - you may have tried some these are ones I've found work for me.

    1/ paper - try different papers and see if that makes a difference. I bought nice, new leather journal with quality paper - it makes dry ink look really thin. Wet ink works better. Some of my nibs hate Clairfontaine paper - the nibs can't deal with the slick coating.
    2/ ink - try a different ink, with different types of paper.
    3/ filling - if using a convertor make surer the nib is fully immersed in the ink - otherwise you are sucking up air and ink - and that might be causing the problem.
    4/ "burp" the pen after filling - gain if using a piston, convertor or aerometric - squeeze a couple of drops of ink out after filling. This primes the nib.
    5/ residual gunk - flush pen with water - if that doesn't work try washing up liquid.
    6/ "bedding in" - with some new pens, I've found that constant use for two weeks gets everything working. With one pen I had to dip the nib into a bottle of ink to avoid hard starts - after two weeks this was no longer necessary, and the pen writes even better. I can't explain it - but I've seen this with a new S T Dupont and a new MB. it took two weeks to get them writing well - but they've stayed that way since. So, try dipping the nib into a bottle of ink before you start writing.
    7/ some pens don't like to sit - I've got some pens that will write after being put down for three months, and I've got others that won't last a week-end.
    8/ grip - are you keeping the nib flat on the page? If you are not using a lay flat journal - then the curvature of the paper can cause a problem.
    9/ hand oils on paper - I only see this with some paper - but if your hand in touching the paper below - that might be what is stopping your pen from writing.

    If the pens are new - and these fixes do not work - so far, you have not done anything to invalidate the warranty so far.

    If it is baby's bottom - then send the pen back and get the retailer/manufacturer to sort it out.

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Newbury, MA
    Posts
    59
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    Which pens are we talking about?

    Also, what paper?

    It might be worth flushing the pens thoroughly. Doing so has helped a hard starting pen or two for me.

    In other cases the pens wrote fine with some ink and not others.

    In several cases the issue was baby's bottom.
    Brand new B nib MB Swift (piston filled with Pelikan 4001 Black), a new MB Mozart, and an older MB 114 (cartridged with MB Black). For paper there was a pad that came with a Coach Leather Zipper Folder, and two notebooks I've been using for journaling. Below is writing samples from the two notebooks from the Swift. I've wondered if it could be the way I'm holding the pens relative to the paper surfaces as well.

    Last edited by hogwldfltr; April 12th, 2020 at 04:25 PM.

  11. #10
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Those also seem to show that you might be wrist writing which rotates the nib in orientation to the paper as you write. Try using your whole arm to write instead of your wrist. I don't see signs in the samples you posted of ink starvation or the vapor lock syndrome I mentioned before.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    hogwldfltr (April 13th, 2020)

  13. #11
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,004
    Thanks
    2,407
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    You’re using a piston filler, and quality inks that tend not to stick to the top of the cartridge or converter; so I’d almost rule that out. I’d also rule out adding soap to otherwise known problem free inks. However, to be sure, with the two non piston fillers: If they stop writing in the middle of the page, hold them gently and unscrew the barrel. If the ink is “sticking” due to surface tension, you’ll see it suspended in the top of the cartridge or converter.

    If they’re all B nibs, it could be positioning; but you’ll have to experiment with that. Also, what’s the difference between the two papers you’ve pictured? The one on the left looks like some generic school type wire bound notebook. Smoother, glossier and more expensive papers won’t reach the ink and start the capillary process if there’s baby bottom. Cheaper notebook paper will.

    Any pen that is new (particularly MB) should be returned to the boutique for writing problems. Since none of these are cheap pens, do not try smoothing if you’re not experienced at it. If some are used pens, you can still have MB correct them for a fee, or you could send it to someone who tunes nibs. I can’t think of their names at the moment, but the “apprentices” of Richard Binder and John Mottishaw have branched out and started their own businesses.

    I posted Richard Binder’s link so you could see different types of problems, not necessarily for you to try to fix these pens on your own.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    hogwldfltr (April 13th, 2020)

  15. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    California Central Coast
    Posts
    652
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 1,124 Times in 428 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Richard Binder's apprentice is Linda at Indy-Pen-Dance:

    https://www.indy-pen-dance.com/nib-work.html

    John Mottishaw's apprentice is Gena at Custom Nib Studio:

    https://www.customnibstudio.com/about-1
    Bucket list - walk the Camino de Santiago again

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to junglejim For This Useful Post:

    dneal (April 12th, 2020), hogwldfltr (April 13th, 2020)

  17. #13
    Senior Member azkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    2,016
    Thanks
    3,725
    Thanked 1,703 Times in 822 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    I find Pelikan black is a rather dry writing ink in my experience. I've used it to tame extremely wet, even drippy vintage pens before.

    To eliminate ink as a possible cause it might be worth trying an ink with more generous flow, like Waterman Serenity Blue, Mysterious Blue or Intense Black; Quink Black; Iroshizuku Take-sumi, Tsuki-yo, Yama budo, etc; J. Herbin Perle Noire.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to azkid For This Useful Post:

    hogwldfltr (April 13th, 2020)

  19. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    51
    Thanked 244 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    My MB William Shakespeare does not like Pelikan brilliant black. I tried it last week on Papuro's 90gsm paper. I got skips and very thin writing.

    The Pelikan ink is probably ink is too dry for MB's - I suggest flushing out the Pelikan ink and using MB's black ink instead, or Waterman - whichever you have to hand.

    It will be like writing with a new pen.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sandy For This Useful Post:

    azkid (April 13th, 2020), hogwldfltr (April 13th, 2020)

  21. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Newbury, MA
    Posts
    59
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Thank you everyone for your inputs; I'd no idea about the Pelikan ink being a dry ink. I'll try substituting some MB ink I've purchased. The ink in both the M nib Swift and my F nib 144 is MB black in the cartridge. I must admit that the Swift does pretty well. The 144's fine nib is likely the most tenuous. I've got an M nib replacement coming for that, eventually. Again thanks for the help!!!

  22. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by hogwldfltr View Post
    Thank you everyone for your inputs; I'd no idea about the Pelikan ink being a dry ink. I'll try substituting some MB ink I've purchased. The ink in both the M nib Swift and my F nib 144 is MB black in the cartridge. I must admit that the Swift does pretty well. The 144's fine nib is likely the most tenuous. I've got an M nib replacement coming for that, eventually. Again thanks for the help!!!
    A good general rule of thumb is to look at the pens a company manufactures and usually (though not always) the ink is designed to compensate. In other words, Pelikans tend to be very very wet writers so the ink tends to be drier to make up for that and give an overall balanced writing experience. Similarly, Pilot inks tend to be wet whereas their nibs tend to be on the drier side.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Aurelius For This Useful Post:

    azkid (April 13th, 2020)

  24. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,796
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    I started with Pelikan and read about the benefit of using a wet ink in vintage pens. I now use only Waterman. That said, the writing sample makes me think the problem is not the ink.

  25. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Newbury, MA
    Posts
    59
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I started with Pelikan and read about the benefit of using a wet ink in vintage pens. I now use only Waterman. That said, the writing sample makes me think the problem is not the ink.
    Yep, working on technique.

  26. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,796
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by hogwldfltr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I started with Pelikan and read about the benefit of using a wet ink in vintage pens. I now use only Waterman. That said, the writing sample makes me think the problem is not the ink.
    Yep, working on technique.
    Not thinking about your technique since the other page looks fine.

  27. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Newbury, MA
    Posts
    59
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Guidance requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hogwldfltr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I started with Pelikan and read about the benefit of using a wet ink in vintage pens. I now use only Waterman. That said, the writing sample makes me think the problem is not the ink.
    Yep, working on technique.
    Not thinking about your technique since the other page looks fine.
    I guess I misunderstood; I've switched to the brown paper journal for my writing. Below are sample of each pen I've got on it. I also switched up on inks to get them to better match the pens as well.

    The smoother finish of the browner paper also makes the feel much better. Please excuse my inexperience but I've got to learn somewhere. Thanks for the help.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •