The Virus

[Fermata]

News resources in Singapore are reporting that the Wu Han food markets have reopened including the sale of pangolins, bats, snakes, cats and dogs.

The Chinese authorities say that this cannot be changed, it is history, culture, a way of life.

Something needs to be done.

[Chrissy]

News resources in Singapore are reporting that the Wu Han food markets have reopened including the sale of pangolins, bats, snakes, cats and dogs.

The Chinese authorities say that this cannot be changed, it is history, culture, a way of life.

Something needs to be done.

I agree but I'm not sure the UN will do it. They can't survive without Chinese exports so they won't do anything to "upset" China.

[Pterodactylus]

News resources in Singapore are reporting that the Wu Han food markets have reopened including the sale of pangolins, bats, snakes, cats and dogs.

The Chinese authorities say that this cannot be changed, it is history, culture, a way of life.

Something needs to be done.

I agree but I'm not sure the UN will do it. They can't survive without Chinese exports so they won't do anything to "upset" China.

This is so ridiculous, actually I’m more scared by such a ignorance and stupid behavior of the Chinese than e.g. when Babyface Kim in North Korea is playing with nukes.

I hope the world at least learned one thing.
That the next time in a country (especially if it is China as the top virus incubator in the last 20 years) a new unknown virus starts to show up, this country will get immediately isolated by the rest of the world (joint action, no exceptions) until the outbreak is over. Nobody in, nobody out. No matter what the political, economical and touristic consequences might are.

This time nobody had the guts to anger the big Chinese dragon, but I hope this will be the last time.

[grainweevil]

I thought this article on The Conversation - Why shutting down Chinese 'wet markets' could be a terrible mistake - was interesting, and the point about previous attempts to ban them merely leading to a black market and a much greater health risk worth noting.

[Fermata]

I have just been reading an article on the potentential sources of the virus, being either the African Pangolin or bats, both are known to carry viruses similar to Covid 19.

"The discovery of multiple lineages of pangolin coronavirus and their similarity to Sars-CoV-2 suggests that pangolins should be considered as possible hosts in the emergence of novel coronaviruses and should be removed from wet markets to prevent zoonotic transmission."

In what could be seen as a boost to the endangered animal, China declared an immediate and "comprehensive" ban on the trade and consumption of wild animals in February.

Beijing implemented similar measures following the SARS outbreak in the early 2000s, but the trade and consumption of wild animals, including bats and snakes, made a comeback.

This time the ban is permanent, raising hopes that it could end the local trade in wildlife."

I am not going to post pictures from the Singaporean news source, they are horrific, they were taken in March and show bats and pangolins on sale in a Wu Han market.

[TSherbs]

gross

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[carlos.q]

This topic can easily get out of hand demonstrating our own cultural prejudices about what is edible or not. The french consider snails and frog legs as a delicacy. The british have their blood pudding and we have "morcillas". In Spain many love to eat bull's testicles. Some people eat snakes, others eat rabbits. How about some nice pig's feet?

Every culture and every country has their share of strange things to eat. Strange to many of us. But not all of us.

[Chrissy]

This topic can easily get out of hand demonstrating our own cultural prejudices about what is edible or not. The french consider snails and frog legs as a delicacy. The british have their blood pudding and we have "morcillas". In Spain many love to eat bull's testicles. Some people eat snakes, others eat rabbits. How about some nice pig's feet?

Every culture and every country has their share of strange things to eat. Strange to many of us. But not all of us.

But is there a difference between what the general human population of the planet considers strange as opposed to what the general human population of the planet knows of as potentially dangerous or seriously harmful to the health of humans?

[Fermata]

This topic can easily get out of hand demonstrating our own cultural prejudices about what is edible or not. The french consider snails and frog legs as a delicacy. The british have their blood pudding and we have "morcillas". In Spain many love to eat bull's testicles. Some people eat snakes, others eat rabbits. How about some nice pig's feet?

Every culture and every country has their share of strange things to eat. Strange to many of us. But not all of us.

But is there a difference between what the general human population of the planet considers strange as opposed to what the general human population of the planet knows of as potentially dangerous or seriously harmful to the health of humans?

Good point.

As far as I know eating frogs legs in France or black pudding in Lancashire or bulls bits in Spain will not put the entire population of the world at risk.

Eating animals which are known to be carriers of coronavirus must be stopped on the basis that this killer virus can be passed between animal and human.

[aremesal]

This topic can easily get out of hand demonstrating our own cultural prejudices about what is edible or not. The french consider snails and frog legs as a delicacy. The british have their blood pudding and we have "morcillas". In Spain many love to eat bull's testicles. Some people eat snakes, others eat rabbits. How about some nice pig's feet?

Every culture and every country has their share of strange things to eat. Strange to many of us. But not all of us.

But is there a difference between what the general human population of the planet considers strange as opposed to what the general human population of the planet knows of as potentially dangerous or seriously harmful to the health of humans?

Good point.

As far as I know eating frogs legs in France or black pudding in Lancashire or bulls bits in Spain will not put the entire population of the world at risk.

Eating animals which are known to be carriers of coronavirus must be stopped on the basis that this killer virus can be passed between animal and human.

I agree with Carlos, in Spain we eat a kind of black pudding, rabbits, snails, frog legs, bull's testicles, cockscombs... and some wildlife too. Many of these are "WTF" items for Asian/Chinese people I have talked about with...

But regarding the coronaviruses... chickens and pigs are carriers to humans too, should we ban chickens and pigs too?

[Fermata]

This topic can easily get out of hand demonstrating our own cultural prejudices about what is edible or not. The french consider snails and frog legs as a delicacy. The british have their blood pudding and we have "morcillas". In Spain many love to eat bull's testicles. Some people eat snakes, others eat rabbits. How about some nice pig's feet?

Every culture and every country has their share of strange things to eat. Strange to many of us. But not all of us.

But is there a difference between what the general human population of the planet considers strange as opposed to what the general human population of the planet knows of as potentially dangerous or seriously harmful to the health of humans?

Good point.

As far as I know eating frogs legs in France or black pudding in Lancashire or bulls bits in Spain will not put the entire population of the world at risk.

Eating animals which are known to be carriers of coronavirus must be stopped on the basis that this killer virus can be passed between animal and human.

I agree with Carlos, in Spain we eat a kind of black pudding, rabbits, snails, frog legs, bull's testicles, cockscombs... and some wildlife too. Many of these are "WTF" items for Asian/Chinese people I have talked about with...

But regarding the coronaviruses... chickens and pigs are carriers to humans too, should we ban chickens and pigs too?

If there is a traceable history of coronavirus in chickens and pigs causing death in humans on a global scale then yes you should ban the eating of chickens and pigs.

My understanding of the wild meat market in Wu Han is that the food is bought to be eaten raw, no cooking is involved and at least one species is eaten whilst still alive.

I suggest that your comparison is not valid.

[catbert]

Or agriculture in general?

Thus, the rise of agriculture starting 11,000 years ago played multiple roles in the evolution of animal pathogens into human pathogens (Diamond, 1997; Diamond, 2002; McNeill, 1976). Those roles included both generation of the large human populations necessary for the evolution and persistence of human crowd diseases, and generation of large populations of domestic animals, with which farmers came into much closer and more frequent contact than hunter/gatherers had with wild animals. Moreover, as illustrated by influenza A, these domestic animal herds served as efficient conduits for pathogen transfers from wild animals to humans, and in the process may have evolved specialized crowd diseases of their own.

Source: Origins of major human infectious diseases https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114494/

[Fermata]

The bottom line is that Wu Han was the epicentre of the outbreak, you need to form your own opinion why that might be as opposed to Madrid, Tokyo or anywhere else.

It is a fact that pangolins, bats and other exotic wildlife were on sale in the Wu Han market for human consumption.

It is a fact that pangolins and bats harbour coronavirus.



What I don't have an answer to is why this outbreak has not happened in the past when these animals have been eaten for centuries. It is possible that there have been previous outbreaks but they have been contained within Wu Han, but that is conjecture.

[catbert]

What I don't have an answer to is why this outbreak has not happened in the past when these animals have been eaten for centuries. It is possible that there have been previous outbreaks but they have been contained within Wu Han, but that is conjecture.

Didn't happen in the past because it is a *novel* coronavirus. The clue is in the name. Other outbreaks did happen and future outbreaks will. The mechanism: large populations of animals and people in proximity (see link in post no. 512). 'Twas ever thus.

Which isn't to say we couldn't handle these outbreaks better as a species. Let's see if we learn from this one.

[Chrissy]

Which isn't to say we couldn't handle these outbreaks better as a species. Let's see if we learn from this one.

I hope we will.

[TSherbs]

I'd rather have a government--including my own--shut down a specific dangerous foodstuff than have have the whole fucking world shut down.

So, yeah, if buying raw ground beef at American markets ends up starting a world-wide viral pandemic, then, yes, we shut that shit down. We can do without the burgers, even on the fucking Fourth of July.

Obviously.



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[TSherbs]

Sorry.

Cultural sacrifice, to me, seems tiny compared to world-wide deaths and economic suffering (which will cause untold more deaths).



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[Scrawler]

Sorry.

Cultural sacrifice, to me, seems tiny compared to world-wide deaths and economic suffering (which will cause untold more deaths).



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They may claim cultural exemption, but the farming of wild animals and these markets is a result of CCP being unable to feed all their population. While it is true that they have always had a reputation of eating everything, including the table and its four legs, this wild animal farming is new.

[Chrissy]

Sorry.

Cultural sacrifice, to me, seems tiny compared to world-wide deaths and economic suffering (which will cause untold more deaths).



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It does to me too.

[ethernautrix]

Mad cow disease. We didn't just let that go on. Ya know?