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Thread: Combatting the virus and economic risk

  1. #21
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!
    No, I just didn't bring my hip-waders for the volume of BS hyperbole and strawmen that got flung.

    I did give your earlier post a "thanks" for being one of the few measured responses.

    This one, not so much.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Just one addition:

    Even with the best available intensive care in a industry country about 30-50% of the people which needs ventilation are dying currently !

    This is a fact not fiction until no effective medication is found.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    No, it just demonstrates the inability of most internet denizens to have a calm, rational discussion.
    I'm sorry that my response was certainly one that kicked it in that direction. There have certainly been other times, and other subjects, where calm and rational discussion would be far easier to offer and maintain. I know that I'm on edge, fraught with concerns for family and friends caught up in all this far deeper than I and, having that layer underneath most of my daily considerations, the concept of casual and mindful discussion on the economics of the pandemic, as it is affecting the United States, is likely beyond me.

    I should have simply not replied at all.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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  5. #24
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Stolen from somewhere on the interwebz. I don't suspect the result will be as dire as noted, but I think the potential consequences could be more serious than some are giving credit for.



    New York Governor Andrew Cuomo has suggested that his state may remain in its locked down position for nine months. He says, insanely, that such a measure would be worth it “if it saves just one life.” Many local officials in many other states have made, or seem to have made (everything is covered in a layer of ambiguity and vagueness), similarly dire forecasts. And often offering similarly banal platitudes to justify the potential destruction of their economies.

    Meanwhile, we’re now being warned that 30% unemployment is on the horizon. The collapse of the commercial mortgage market could be close behind. And these are just the relatively immediate consequences of closing thousands of businesses for an indefinite period of time. Keep in mind that the worst unemployment rate in American history was 25% during the Great Depression. The worst my generation has seen is 10%. This would be three times worse than we’ve ever seen, and 5% worse than anyone in American history has seen.And what will happen to people in the meantime? A large majority of Americans are already living paycheck to paycheck. How will they survive if the shut downs last for many weeks? How will they feed themselves and their kids? How will they pay the rent or the mortgage? Government stimulus checks can only go so far. Yes, send the checks, but that can’t be a new way of life. People need to work to care for themselves and their families. What happens when millions are prevented from doing so for a long stretch of time?

    Well, nobody knows the answer to that question because nothing like this has ever happened. No government, as far as I’m aware, has ever willfully plunged itself into a depression, obliterating its own economy on purpose, in order to prevent some other potential calamity. If that is the route we go, we will be the first to try it. And I think there are many very good reasons to predict rather horrifying results for such an experiment.
    Destitution and poverty on a massive scale. Looting. Rioting. Millions homeless. And that’s just the beginning. Remember that some of our major cities have, in recent history, been overtaken by anarchy and looting over a few allegedly unjust police shootings. What will happen in those cities after a month of government mandated quarantine?

    I’m sure it will not be entirely “safe” to go back to work after 15 days — indeed I suspect 15 days was a somewhat arbitrary time frame to begin with — but we have no other choice if we want to preserve our civilization. Does that mean that we fling open our doors, run outside, and start infecting each other with abandon? No, of course not.

    But maybe we could follow a plan kind of like this:

    1. Open the economy back up. Let young and healthy people work and feed their families.

    2. Encourage masks, or even require them, for certain industries where transmission might be especially likely.

    3. Keep nursing homes quarantined.

    4. Tell other at-risk people to remain in their homes for now.

    5. Test aggressively and quarantine the infected.

    6. Provide financial relief to at-risk people who cannot work.

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    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    I really wish there would be also a second button beside the “Thanks” button with the opposite meaning.....

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!
    It may be time for the Ignore button to work its magic again, Deb.

    And just like that -it's Done!
    Last edited by sgphoto; March 24th, 2020 at 01:41 PM.

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    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!
    No, I just didn't bring my hip-waders for the volume of BS hyperbole and strawmen that got flung.

    I did give your earlier post a "thanks" for being one of the few measured responses.

    This one, not so much.
    Oh, sorry. I thought you were leaving.
    Regards,
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  12. #28
    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Stolen from somewhere on the interwebz
    It really is a bit rich trying to adopt the moral high ground about your willingness to have a rational discussion, and then pasting unattributed blog commentary. Let's keep the forum free of russian bot spam, please.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    I really wish there would be also a second button beside the “Thanks” button with the opposite meaning.....

    There is, it's not as easy to find though...Click on the users name, view profile then add user to ignore list.

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    It has been my understanding that the function of the economy is to meet the physical needs of the society it serves. In some places it seems that the reverse may apply and the main purpose is to make money.

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  18. #31
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by rocl View Post
    It has been my understanding that the function of the economy is to meet the physical needs of the society it serves.
    That is a necessary, but minimal, expectation. Modern economies are expected to do much more than this, and often do.



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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    The better option is to test. Test 200 million or so folk, everyone before they return to work, everyone before they return to school, every care giver or parent, test them all and let those who are free from the virus return to normalcy.

    But the US always chooses the dumbest possible paths.
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rocl View Post
    It has been my understanding that the function of the economy is to meet the physical needs of the society it serves.
    That is a necessary, but minimal, expectation. Modern economies are expected to do much more than this, and often do.



    Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk
    Yes it was. In times of stress I become even more minimalistic than I usually am. I should have added -

    and to provide the means for the other aspects of individual and communal life.

    My point is that the economy is our servant not our master.

  22. #34
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!
    No, I just didn't bring my hip-waders for the volume of BS hyperbole and strawmen that got flung.

    I did give your earlier post a "thanks" for being one of the few measured responses.

    This one, not so much.
    Oh, sorry. I thought you were leaving.
    I thought you were ignoring me after your obnoxious posts in the tine bending thread.

  23. #35
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    No, it just demonstrates the inability of most internet denizens to have a calm, rational discussion.
    I'm sorry that my response was certainly one that kicked it in that direction. There have certainly been other times, and other subjects, where calm and rational discussion would be far easier to offer and maintain. I know that I'm on edge, fraught with concerns for family and friends caught up in all this far deeper than I and, having that layer underneath most of my daily considerations, the concept of casual and mindful discussion on the economics of the pandemic, as it is affecting the United States, is likely beyond me.

    I should have simply not replied at all.
    I understand. At least you weren't an obnoxious cunt about it...

    So my last 10 years or so in the Army were at the Theater Army level. U.S. Army Europe is the DOD face to all of Europe. U.S. Army South is the DOD face to all of Central and South America (less Mexico, which is Army North). After that, I worked on redesigning the Army from a counter-insurgency force to one that can fight a peer competitor. Point is that I'm familiar with thinking at the operational and strategic level.

    Defense Support of Civil Authorities (DSCA) is an Army mission. Army North has this task for the U.S. It's everything from disaster relief to pandemic outbreaks. It's not martial law. It's providing DOD resources to State and Federal agencies. Civil unrest is a key concern with any crisis. Economic catastrophe would lead to a lot of civil unrest. Hell, look what an election caused from ne'er-do wells. What happens when hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people don't have a job to return to? When an army of waiters, factory workers and other hourly workers... can't pay their rent or buy food for their families? They're not going to starve willingly (and look at gun sales over the last month or two...).

    It's not something that can be ignored, and dealt with later. It's something that should be thought about and planned for now.

    That's all I'm saying, and all I'm offering for discussion.

  24. #36
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Stolen from somewhere on the interwebz
    It really is a bit rich trying to adopt the moral high ground about your willingness to have a rational discussion, and then pasting unattributed blog commentary. Let's keep the forum free of russian bot spam, please.
    There is either validity to the commentary, or there isn't. Dismissing it as "russian bot spam" is disingenuous and simply tells me you have no rational rebuttal.

  25. #37
    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Stolen from somewhere on the interwebz
    It really is a bit rich trying to adopt the moral high ground about your willingness to have a rational discussion, and then pasting unattributed blog commentary. Let's keep the forum free of russian bot spam, please.
    There is either validity to the commentary, or there isn't. Dismissing it as "russian bot spam" is disingenuous and simply tells me you have no rational rebuttal.
    My point is there is no way for any of us, other than you, to know what it is. It isn't journalism, that is for sure. If you were debating in good faith, you would have cited the source, rather than hiding behind the "found somewhere on the interwebz" lie, which is laughable given you quoted such a large chunk of the post.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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  27. #38
    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!
    No, I just didn't bring my hip-waders for the volume of BS hyperbole and strawmen that got flung.

    I did give your earlier post a "thanks" for being one of the few measured responses.

    This one, not so much.
    Oh, sorry. I thought you were leaving.
    I thought you were ignoring me after your obnoxious posts in the tine bending thread.
    You were worth a little of my time but not very much.
    Regards,
    Deb
    My Blog
    My Pen Sales

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  29. #39
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Deb View Post
    Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!
    No, I just didn't bring my hip-waders for the volume of BS hyperbole and strawmen that got flung.

    I did give your earlier post a "thanks" for being one of the few measured responses.

    This one, not so much.
    Oh, sorry. I thought you were leaving.
    I thought you were ignoring me after your obnoxious posts in the tine bending thread.
    You were worth a little of my time but not very much.
    Yet you keep responding...

  30. #40
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Stolen from somewhere on the interwebz
    It really is a bit rich trying to adopt the moral high ground about your willingness to have a rational discussion, and then pasting unattributed blog commentary. Let's keep the forum free of russian bot spam, please.
    There is either validity to the commentary, or there isn't. Dismissing it as "russian bot spam" is disingenuous and simply tells me you have no rational rebuttal.
    My point is there is no way for any of us, other than you, to know what it is. It isn't journalism, that is for sure. If you were debating in good faith, you would have cited the source, rather than hiding behind the "found somewhere on the interwebz" lie, which is laughable given you quoted such a large chunk of the post.
    A. I wasn't debating.

    B. The source is Matt Walsh (a horrible christian conservative). Post a link? People bitch (see another earlier response). Don't like the source? People attack that. Just post the content? I get this. It's all deflection.

    The points either have validity or they don't. I see some. I'm not convinced on other points.

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