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Thread: Combatting the virus and economic risk

  1. #41
    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The source is Matt Walsh
    Oh, this guy? No wonder you were too ashamed to cite your source.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

  2. #42
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The source is Matt Walsh
    Oh, this guy? No wonder you were too ashamed to cite your source.
    See?

    Not ashamed, just trying to eliminate bias like you’re showing. I disagree with him much more than I agree, but his points have merit or they don’t. Again, dismissing them out of hand is simply a logical fallacy. You are apparently unable to offer a cogent critique.

  3. #43
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Here’s a recent article from Reason Magazine explaining how mass testing (like South Korea did) will help minimize further economic impact.

    In summary: 2 tests. One (PCR test) to detect active presence of the virus. A second (serology) test to detect immune system responses to being exposed. Those who show active virus self-quarantine and trace contacts. Those who show immune response go to work and return to a normal life.

    The hold up? FDA approval...

  4. #44
    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The source is Matt Walsh
    Oh, this guy? No wonder you were too ashamed to cite your source.
    See?

    Not ashamed, just trying to eliminate bias like you’re showing. I disagree with him much more than I agree, but his points have merit or they don’t. Again, dismissing them out of hand is simply a logical fallacy. You are apparently unable to offer a cogent critique.
    There is no "cogent critique": the guy is not an epidemiologist, nor a virologist, does not have a medical degree. He is a wingnut with a hot take. There are millions of them out there; you can choose to cite them as a basis for a "discussion", I am comfortable dismissing them and those that spread their puerile reckons.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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  6. #45
    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    No, it just demonstrates the inability of most internet denizens to have a calm, rational discussion.
    I'm sorry that my response was certainly one that kicked it in that direction. There have certainly been other times, and other subjects, where calm and rational discussion would be far easier to offer and maintain. I know that I'm on edge, fraught with concerns for family and friends caught up in all this far deeper than I and, having that layer underneath most of my daily considerations, the concept of casual and mindful discussion on the economics of the pandemic, as it is affecting the United States, is likely beyond me.

    I should have simply not replied at all.
    I understand. At least you weren't an obnoxious cunt about it...

    So my last 10 years or so in the Army were at the Theater Army level. U.S. Army Europe is the DOD face to all of Europe. U.S. Army South is the DOD face to all of Central and South America (less Mexico, which is Army North). After that, I worked on redesigning the Army from a counter-insurgency force to one that can fight a peer competitor. Point is that I'm familiar with thinking at the operational and strategic level.

    Defense Support of Civil Authorities (DSCA) is an Army mission. Army North has this task for the U.S. It's everything from disaster relief to pandemic outbreaks. It's not martial law. It's providing DOD resources to State and Federal agencies. Civil unrest is a key concern with any crisis. Economic catastrophe would lead to a lot of civil unrest. Hell, look what an election caused from ne'er-do wells. What happens when hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people don't have a job to return to? When an army of waiters, factory workers and other hourly workers... can't pay their rent or buy food for their families? They're not going to starve willingly (and look at gun sales over the last month or two...).

    It's not something that can be ignored, and dealt with later. It's something that should be thought about and planned for now.

    That's all I'm saying, and all I'm offering for discussion.
    Look, that’s exactly the difference.

    I live in a country with a intact social network.
    Here nobody has to fear to starve or will loose the ability to satisfy the basic needs (like having a home, electricity, heating, water, medical treatment) (in the vast majority of cases).
    Everybody has a health insurance.
    Everybody has access to the same level of medical treatment, surgery and therapy.
    Nobody has to fear to loose his job or can’t pay his bills anymore because he is ill, he will get paid for another 6 weeks by the company and afterwards from the health insurance.
    Even you get unemployed you will get first up to 80% of your last income from the state and later at least a basic income for a unlimited time, you always stay health insured.

    All this costs a lot of money, especially from the intermediate and higher-income earners.

    I often looked critical to some of this, looking over the pond imaging how much more money I possible could have over the decades. (I’m not rich but I can buy what I need and want without thinking much about it, for sure paying much more into the social system than consuming).

    But in such a situation I’m not worried about civil unrest, and armed mobs (because also most people do not own arms).

    In my country 92% of the people think the lockdown is right and agree with it.

    And sure, this crisis will cost billions, at least on short term a lot of people will get unemployed and we will have to pay the bill “together” afterwards for years (more than 100k people lost their jobs at least for now in the last 2 weeks in a 8.5 million country).
    The state already help companies AND people with huge amount of money and will continue doing so.
    And yes we will have not a balanced state budget anymore in the next years, we will have a deficit, but thatˋs the price to be paid for lifes.
    At the end itˋs only money, not more.

    And currently itˋs “only” a bit of inconvenience for the people to save life’s, and it costs a lot of money.
    It’s not like all the infrastructure is completely destroyed and almost all the skilled people dyed like after WW2.

    I see it like this: we just pressed the “pause” button for not essential economy for a limited amount of time (possibly a couple of months in the worst case).
    Afterwards life will go on and we will pay the economical bill but saved a lot of life’s.
    For me that’s undoubtful a minor price for life’s.

    Or are we already that decadent, money-grubbing, social cold, cold hearted that personal convenience for a short period of time is more important than that?

    What would somebody right after WW2 thought about the current limited constraints we currently have to take compared to the situation back then?

    Of course social frameworks costs a lot of money, and of course there are people which abuse the system, but I’m confident that it is worth having it that all people get at least what is needed to life a humane live.
    And it gives a society much more stability in crisis.



    Of course we donˋt have a military budget of 738 Billion dollars for 2020 like the US.
    We have only a small defensive army which has additional a focus on supporting functions in crisis with 1,9 billion dollar budget (0.6% GDB).

    But I’m happy that we spent our money in the social framework instead of other things.
    Last edited by Pterodactylus; March 25th, 2020 at 01:57 AM.

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  8. #46
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.

    Good grief.

    Never thought I would read anything like that.

    No country, anywhere, can hold up their head and say 'we are blame free'.

    History is just that, many of us have problems dealing with the present and hoping for the future, let us not look to the past in order to have a weapon to attack others today.

    Especially on here for goodness sake.

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  11. #48
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.
    Absolutely no need to rake over old ground from history like this. What's past is in the past and we all have to look forward.
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  13. #49
    Senior Member carlos.q's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.
    This is a very simplistic explanation for a very complex set of historical circumstances. If we analyze history like this our world view will be very narrow and our actions will inevitably be incorrect.

    I believe you should apologize.

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    Senior Member Deb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.
    And the relevance of pre-1946 history is? You're a nasty piece of work, dneal, and you clearly have a head full of shit. I was advised to consign you to the "ignore" button yesterday. I'm taking that advice now.
    Regards,
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  17. #51
    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.
    This not even deserves any kind of answer.....

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  19. #52
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    You know, I posted a serious question initially. There were a few rational answers (thanks Jar), but perusing the comments, they (paraphrasing) were things like:

    "Shutdowns work, and this is not the flu"
    "I'd rather be broke than dead"
    "I'm pissed off at sacrificing an older generation for money"
    "Ask the dead"
    "Loaded question, serious answers weren't being sought, op has no alternatives but a link"
    "You can argue that you don't care about 8-10% death rates"
    "Russian spam bot"
    "My socialist country is sooo much better than your militant country"

    The topic was generally avoided or dismissed out of hand. Hyperbole, strawmen, false analogies and red herrings abound. Glib, banal, silly or nasty responses got the same in return.

    Want a reasonable discussion? Don't want nastiness? Think about what you've typed before you post, or whine about me being "mean". Makes little difference to me, although I do get a chuckle at the many of you that can dish it out, but can't take it.

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Ignore List

    Bye Bye Dneal

    Life is way to short to read crap like that.

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You know, I posted a serious question initially. There were a few rational answers (thanks Jar), but perusing the comments, they (paraphrasing) were things like:

    "Shutdowns work, and this is not the flu"
    "I'd rather be broke than dead"
    "I'm pissed off at sacrificing an older generation for money"
    "Ask the dead"
    "Loaded question, serious answers weren't being sought, op has no alternatives but a link"
    "You can argue that you don't care about 8-10% death rates"
    "Russian spam bot"
    "My socialist country is sooo much better than your militant country"

    The topic was generally avoided or dismissed out of hand. Hyperbole, strawmen, false analogies and red herrings abound. Glib, banal, silly or nasty responses got the same in return.

    Want a reasonable discussion? Don't want nastiness? Think about what you've typed before you post, or whine about me being "mean". Makes little difference to me, although I do get a chuckle at the many of you that can dish it out, but can't take it.
    You make some reasonable points in this specific post. I'm sure even you would agree that some of your other posts contain very controversial material.

    BUT, I must say, it has been a long, long time since I have seen or heard a woman being referred to as a "cunt" in some public forum or discussion. For me, that alone merits a penalty flag.

    Given the high regard and respect that 99+% of us have for the person to whom it was directed, I must tell you, it was way beyond offensive.

    This is an important topic. Disagreement is to be expected and, quite frankly, welcomed. If you'd like to put it back on track you might want to consider an apology. And, moving forward, let's try to agree that creditable (data and/or evidence based) posts are the best way for us to conduct this important, world-wide conversation.

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  24. #55
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You know, I posted a serious question initially. There were a few rational answers (thanks Jar), but perusing the comments, they (paraphrasing) were things like:

    "Shutdowns work, and this is not the flu"
    "I'd rather be broke than dead"
    "I'm pissed off at sacrificing an older generation for money"
    "Ask the dead"
    "Loaded question, serious answers weren't being sought, op has no alternatives but a link"
    "You can argue that you don't care about 8-10% death rates"
    "Russian spam bot"
    "My socialist country is sooo much better than your militant country"

    The topic was generally avoided or dismissed out of hand. Hyperbole, strawmen, false analogies and red herrings abound. Glib, banal, silly or nasty responses got the same in return.

    Want a reasonable discussion? Don't want nastiness? Think about what you've typed before you post, or whine about me being "mean". Makes little difference to me, although I do get a chuckle at the many of you that can dish it out, but can't take it.
    You make some reasonable points in this specific post. I'm sure even you would agree that some of your other posts contain very controversial material.

    BUT, I must say, it has been a long, long time since I have seen or heard a woman being referred to as a "cunt" in some public forum or discussion. For me, that alone merits a penalty flag.

    Given the high regard and respect that 99+% of us have for the person to whom it was directed, I must tell you, it was way beyond offensive.

    This is an important topic. Disagreement is to be expected and, quite frankly, welcomed. If you'd like to put it back on track you might want to consider an apology. And, moving forward, let's try to agree that creditable (data and/or evidence based) posts are the best way for us to conduct this important, world-wide conversation.
    Not sure who you think I was directing it to. I would think by now that it's clear I have no problem addressing posters directly with what I think.

    I won't apologize for something I didn't start, particularly in today's culture of bullying people into contrition or silence; evidenced pretty well in this thread.

    I'm happy to discuss the topic. I don't hold grudges.

  25. #56
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    I really wish there would be also a second button beside the “Thanks” button with the opposite meaning.....
    There is: it's called the Give Reputation button where you can say whether you like or don't like the post.
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  26. #57
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    Ignore List

    Bye Bye Dneal

    Life is way to short to read crap like that.
    It's funny that you found it necessary to post that. It sounds like a petulant toddler declaring "I'm not going to talk to you anymore!".

    Most people can just pass by posts they aren't interested in. No ignore button needed. Still, maybe it's best for you and other intolerant snowflakes. It'll be interesting, and telling, to see how many consider themselves the target of that comment, even though I have ascribed it to no one in particular other than yourself.

  27. #58
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    I really wish there would be also a second button beside the “Thanks” button with the opposite meaning.....
    There is: it's called the Give Reputation button where you can say whether you like or don't like the post.
    I always thought that kind of thing was for those forums who establish an in-group/out-group hierarchy. "I've been here longer", "They have lots of rep", etc... High-school 'clique' shenanigans.

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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    I was merely pointing out what the other button was for. Some members never use it and may not know exactly what it means.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Blog: inkyfountainpens

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  30. #60
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combatting the virus and economic risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I was merely pointing out what the other button was for. Some members never use it and may not know exactly what it means.
    I understand. My comment wasn’t criticism, just a general observation. Given the tenor of this thread, I see how it could be construed otherwise (not saying you did or didn’t).

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