Combatting the virus and economic risk

[Brilliant Bill]

Neil Young

"Rockin' In the Free World


But there's a warnin' sign
on the road ahead
There's a lot of people sayin'
we'd be better off dead
Don't feel like Satan,
but I am to them
So I try to forget it,
any way I can.

[TSherbs]

Good grief.

Never thought I would read anything like that....

Especially on here for goodness sake.

word





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[TSherbs]

Most people can just pass by posts they aren't interested in.

Yeah, that's how the ignore function works: it makes "ignoring" offensive posts easier.

Otherwise, we have to read them and get some verbal toxins on us before we know what we are in for. I actually believe that some words (and ideas) DO hurt us, contrary to the children's proverb about sticks and stones, even when we witness the words being said to someone else.



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[calamus]

I think this may be the nastiest thread I've seen on this forum. I know everyone is freaking out, but please... I don't feel comfortable saying anything beyond that, and expect to get slammed even for this.

[dneal]

Taking a look at this thread this morning, I thought I'd go back and re-read it. Yes the comments did get nasty quick.

For posterity:

I'd rather be broke than dead. Economies can be rebuilt, but Lazarus appears to be a one-off.

The hyperbole begins.

Ask the dead if they prefer depression and societal calamity... Again, you have no answers. Just pissing-up-a-rope responses.

More hyperbole and "Piss up a rope responses". Yeah, not rude at all.

Frankly, if the mindset is to simply not care if people die, needlessly, for the sake of economic benefit - literally giving their lives for Wall Street - then why even attempt to save anything? Has the concept of human life become so cheapened?

Wow. Because not caring if people die is exactly what the OP was about, right? No misrepresentation there...

The question was loaded to begin with. Serious answers weren't really being sought. The OP has no alternatives but for a link. And the thread descends into BS of a superlative that isn't true but posted for effect.

Yep, no condescension or rudeness there.

Yes you still can argue that you donˋt care that up to 8 - 10% (and yes if the health care systems collapsed it will be for sure such a high percentage as nobody will be able to take care about the medium and heavy cases) death rates, and that economic growth and shareholder value is more important than life's, as the majority of the younger people with no pre-existing illnesses will survive.

Don't care if up to 10% of people die for economic growth... Yeah, that's not a hyperbolic, rude misrepresentation.

No, it just demonstrates the inability of most internet denizens to have a calm, rational discussion.

I guess I'm the rude one for pointing out what's clearly demonstrable.

The virus is bringing out diseased thinking. Humanity is not a zero-sum game!

And the bandwagon is ready to roll...

Oh, so you start the thread and then run away when the fatuousness of your position begins to show!

Just for the record, and just like in the tine bending thread, Deb is the first with the insults.

I really wish there would be also a second button beside the “Thanks” button with the opposite meaning.....

And folks are jumping on the bandwagon...

It really is a bit rich trying to adopt the moral high ground about your willingness to have a rational discussion, and then pasting unattributed blog commentary. Let's keep the forum free of russian bot spam, please.

Accusations, accusations...


All this is perfectly acceptable, apparently. I just see lots of stones being thrown from glass houses, but I'm the asshole. I'm the one who is expected to apologize. Yeah, fuck that.

I'll address the WWII comment. It was ridiculous, and as sarcasm was intended to be; in response to the ridiculous posts that prompted it.

And the use of the word "cunt". No, that wasn't directed at Deb. I would have just said that to her. She's more like the spoiled little sister that pokes and pokes, and then plays the victim. I'll have to give that some thought and see if there's a one-word summation. It's not "cunt" though.

It'll be interesting to see how many people are honest and how many continue to ride on the bandwagon of outrage.

[Chrissy]

I think this may be the nastiest thread I've seen on this forum. I know everyone is freaking out, but please... I don't feel comfortable saying anything beyond that, and expect to get slammed even for this.

I agree with you. It has certainly quickly become one of the nastiest threads I have seen on FPG.
I hope that in the future members who consider starting threads with similar titles that might turn out to be quite confrontational will place them in the Politics, Religion and Society forum so that they don't come up like other Lounge threads as New Posts. Then those who wish to read them can do so and those who don't can easily avoid them.

[LeFreak]

There's no justification for some of the vile name calling in here. Have we really descended to the level of tossing out misogynistic slurs?

No thanks.

See You Next Tuesday, dneal.

[dneal]

There is nothing confrontational about asking if there is a more efficient way of minimizing the speed of the spread of the virus, in order to reduce the economic impact; or expressing concern over the economic impact.

It still baffles me that reasonably educated adults are incapable of having a free exchange of ideas, expressing their opinions in a civil manner. Even more baffling is how they lose their minds when their incivility is met with incivility. The hypocrisy is amazing.

It's sad that said adults would need to be shielded from notions that conflict with their preexisting opinions, and that they can’t just move on to the next thread if they find one that doesn’t interest them or that they disagree with. No one "has" to read anything. There are loads of threads and posts by users that I simply read and pass by. If one truly lacks the self control to move on without being triggered from an opinion they disagree with, the internet probably isn't the best place for them to explore. "Ignoring" users they don't agree with, not to mention needing to declare it publicly, is petty and juvenile.

What's truly shameful is that a minority of overly vocal, overly opinionated members have created an environment of self-righteous groupthink, where others with a differing view are shouted down. I’ve got a thick skin, and have no problem "doing battle" on the internet. However, I’ve received several PMs from posters that agree with me, don’t understand the pile-on, and won’t post for fear of being subject to the same. That’s the community you’ve created. You're intimidating other geeks. You're behaving like a clique of mean girls in junior high school. Well done.

[TSherbs]

Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.

Dneal, just so we're clear, it was this post by you that really set people off, including me. Your point here is nasty and irrelevant, gratuitously so. Either you have some other beef with this poster, or you have your own triggers that, as you accuse others of, you could not pass by without comment. But when you dismiss a very respectful post with your rudeness from prejudice, and then receive criticism for doing so, and then blame others for starting what you yourself escalated with this post, how can you be surprised or indignant or self-righteous about the fact that others may tire of your manner of discussion? Many people here responded to you reasonably, including Ptero in the post that you denigrate from prejudice. You're not wrong to pose the question in the OP, and several people answered respectfully. But you also got snippy and sarcastic, and then with Ptero you went off the rails of decency. The "adult" kind that you have been asking for yourself.

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[Jon Szanto]

Here's what pissed me off. Dneal, you started the thread with simply this (and I'm omitting one statement, leaving the two questions):

At some point, I’m not sure the economic damage we’re sustaining warrants the current approaches to “flattening the curve”. Is “shut everything down” necessarily the only reasonable method of mitigating risk?

I could have answered "I disagree, and yes, and maybe we aren't even being stringent enough."

Would that honestly have pleased you better than my reply, which you immediately and continually have labelled hyperbole? It said essentially the same thing, in words that an artist would use, in language that wasn't just dogged responses. I'm an expressive person, I'm not an engineer, I'm not a soldier, I'm not a logistician. Surely you knew what my point was, but you chose to flog it in your own way as incendiary.

It wasn't. I disagree that the methods in place are wrong, and I don't believe in putting the nation's health at risk for the sake of economics. One can be rebuilt, if painful, the other can't. I'm not making any judgement on why you think some number of people is expendable, if that is the point, but I don't. I hate how the Federal government, as led by the inept man-child in the Oval Office, has responded. I am proud of the way some of the states' leadership have taken charge when it was apparent the national leaders were clueless and arrogantly dismissive of the oncoming pandemic.

Lastly, I have friends and near-family in the hot zones in NY. I worry daily, hourly about their health and that of all the people fighting back there. Never in war would a government be forgiven for holding back on supporting it's troops, but in this instance, fuck the doctors, fuck the citizens of New York because *he* doesn't like them. American citizens lives are now, actively, being colored as expendable in service of the Dow.

NOW I've gone into hyperbole, but only because I was pushed, and I didn't appreciate my quote being used repeatedly as a punching bag. You knew what I meant. I'm sorry we disagree, but that statement framed my input on the issue as well as any multi-paragraph monologue.

Be well.

[Jon Szanto]

This is the time to be slow,
lie low to the wall
until the bitter weather passes.

Try, as best you can, not to let
the wire brush of doubt
scrape from your heart
all sense of yourself
and your hesitant light.

If you remain generous,
time will come good;
and you will find your feet
again on fresh pasture of promise,
where the air will be kind
and blushed with beginning.

~ John O'Donohue

[dneal]

Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.

Dneal, just so we're clear, it was this post by you that really set people off, including me. Your point here is nasty and irrelevant, gratuitously so. Either you have some other beef with this poster, or you have your own triggers that, as you accuse others of, you could not pass by without comment. But when you dismiss a very respectful post with your rudeness from prejudice, and then receive criticism for doing so, and then blame others for starting what you yourself escalated with this post, how can you be surprised or indignant or self-righteous about the fact that others may tire of your manner of discussion? Many people here responded to you reasonably, including Ptero in the post that you denigrate from prejudice. You're not wrong to pose the question in the OP, and several people answered respectfully. But you also got snippy and sarcastic, and then with Ptero you went off the rails of decency. The "adult" kind that you have been asking for yourself.

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Let's take a moment and revisit the posts from this respectful poster you mention. Links are Here, Here, and Here.

The first starts out with "I don't want to debate", and drops some bullshit about me not caring if 8-10% of the population dies and people's lives being more important than economic growth (as if that was what I was asserting). I passed on that one. No need to hit an ignore button, no need to comment, I just let it go.

The second one is how he wants an inverse "thanks" button. Snide insult, but ok I'll ignore that too.

The third post describes actions in his country, his perception of the populations acceptance, etc... Totally no problem from me with that. It's also the second time he mentioned WWII in his posts, not that it really is important; but he can't resist dropping the comment:

"Of course we donˋt have a military budget of 738 Billion dollars for 2020 like the US.
We have only a small defensive army which has additional a focus on supporting functions in crisis with 1,9 billion dollar budget (0.6% GDB)."

That's snide and has nothing to do with coronavirus. Fuck it, if he wants to talk about that, lets talk about it. My comment about his country is factually true. It's hyperbole and leaves a lot out (like how his and other countries were rebuilt with American dollars) and I don't really hold Austria responsible for 2 world wars. I'm being a sarcastic dick in response to a bunch of crap that seems to have been overlooked or ignored by other posters. Honestly, it's not really that insulting. It's a virtual smack on the back of the head. You guys act like I slapped the Pope in the middle of mass.

But let's be really honest, the mob was already gathering the torches and pitchforks well before that post. I just gave them a convenient excuse.

[dneal]

Here's what pissed me off. Dneal, you started the thread with simply this (and I'm omitting one statement, leaving the two questions):

At some point, I’m not sure the economic damage we’re sustaining warrants the current approaches to “flattening the curve”. Is “shut everything down” necessarily the only reasonable method of mitigating risk?

I could have answered "I disagree, and yes, and maybe we aren't even being stringent enough."

Would that honestly have pleased you better than my reply, which you immediately and continually have labelled hyperbole? It said essentially the same thing, in words that an artist would use, in language that wasn't just dogged responses. I'm an expressive person, I'm not an engineer, I'm not a soldier, I'm not a logistician. Surely you knew what my point was, but you chose to flog it in your own way as incendiary.

It wasn't. I disagree that the methods in place are wrong, and I don't believe in putting the nation's health at risk for the sake of economics. One can be rebuilt, if painful, the other can't. I'm not making any judgement on why you think some number of people is expendable, if that is the point, but I don't. I hate how the Federal government, as led by the inept man-child in the Oval Office, has responded. I am proud of the way some of the states' leadership have taken charge when it was apparent the national leaders were clueless and arrogantly dismissive of the oncoming pandemic.

Lastly, I have friends and near-family in the hot zones in NY. I worry daily, hourly about their health and that of all the people fighting back there. Never in war would a government be forgiven for holding back on supporting it's troops, but in this instance, fuck the doctors, fuck the citizens of New York because *he* doesn't like them. American citizens lives are now, actively, being colored as expendable in service of the Dow.

NOW I've gone into hyperbole, but only because I was pushed, and I didn't appreciate my quote being used repeatedly as a punching bag. You knew what I meant. I'm sorry we disagree, but that statement framed my input on the issue as well as any multi-paragraph monologue.

Be well.

Jon, I like you. I like that you call it like you see it and aren't afraid to mix it up. I still think your post was hyperbole and false dichotomy, but I don't think that's an insult. I called you on it, we had a further relatively respectful exchange, and my opinion of you hasn't changed in the slightest. I understand that you and others are passionate. I'm ok with that too. I'm sorry you're not happy I used your post as one of several examples.

I am not advocating putting the nation's health at risk for economics. That keeps being asserted, but I challenge you or anyone to quote me. I recognize that a severe economic calamity can cause serious societal consequences. A multi-trillion dollar bailout is not a very good solution. At the risk of bringing up WWII again, economic calamity is what caused it. The Weimar Republic, "emergency measures", hyperinflation and mass unemployment, etc... There are other historical results of hyperinflation or other economic calamity, and they're not good. Economic disaster is serious, serious business.

There are smart people on this board that I respect, even if I don't agree 100% with them. They come from diverse experiences. I was just wondering if they shared concern, or had ideas of more effective ways to deal with this issue. That seems to be the mindset society is coming around to now - that just shutting everything down wasn't the best course of action, and perhaps there were other ways of flattening the curve and accounting for potential required surge capacity.

[TSherbs]

Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.

Dneal, just so we're clear, it was this post by you that really set people off, including me. Your point here is nasty and irrelevant, gratuitously so. Either you have some other beef with this poster, or you have your own triggers that, as you accuse others of, you could not pass by without comment. But when you dismiss a very respectful post with your rudeness from prejudice, and then receive criticism for doing so, and then blame others for starting what you yourself escalated with this post, how can you be surprised or indignant or self-righteous about the fact that others may tire of your manner of discussion? Many people here responded to you reasonably, including Ptero in the post that you denigrate from prejudice. You're not wrong to pose the question in the OP, and several people answered respectfully. But you also got snippy and sarcastic, and then with Ptero you went off the rails of decency. The "adult" kind that you have been asking for yourself.

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Let's take a moment and revisit the posts from this respectful poster you mention. Links are Here, Here, and Here.

The first starts out with "I don't want to debate", and drops some bullshit about me not caring if 8-10% of the population dies and people's lives being more important than economic growth (as if that was what I was asserting). I passed on that one. No need to hit an ignore button, no need to comment, I just let it go.

The second one is how he wants an inverse "thanks" button. Snide insult, but ok I'll ignore that too.

The third post describes actions in his country, his perception of the populations acceptance, etc... Totally no problem from me with that. It's also the second time he mentioned WWII in his posts, not that it really is important; but he can't resist dropping the comment:

"Of course we donˋt have a military budget of 738 Billion dollars for 2020 like the US.
We have only a small defensive army which has additional a focus on supporting functions in crisis with 1,9 billion dollar budget (0.6% GDB)."

That's snide and has nothing to do with coronavirus. Fuck it, if he wants to talk about that, lets talk about it. My comment about his country is factually true. It's hyperbole and leaves a lot out (like how his and other countries were rebuilt with American dollars) and I don't really hold Austria responsible for 2 world wars. I'm being a sarcastic dick in response to a bunch of crap that seems to have been overlooked or ignored by other posters. Honestly, it's not really that insulting. It's a virtual smack on the back of the head. You guys act like I slapped the Pope in the middle of mass.

But let's be really honest, the mob was already gathering the torches and pitchforks well before that post. I just gave them a convenient excuse.

I've read this, just so you know (since you answered me), but I'm done here.

So people know my personal stake, I have a older brother in the isolation ward of a big city hospital with COVID-19. I don't give a shit about the economy. That will recover (and I am near retirement!) My brother may not. I consider it my job to sacrifice for ANY person still alive. This government should require those with money to give some up for these vulnerable people. We are, in some ways, an incredibly selfish society, worshipping money more than real brotherhood.



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[dneal]

Pterodactylus - your country is responsible for two world wars. The first because a member of the Austrian aristocracy was assassinated, the second because of an Austrian socialist run amok. The need to intervene in WWII, and global “socialist” ideas, created the current U.S. “world police” (and resulting military budget). You should think before you lecture.

Dneal, just so we're clear, it was this post by you that really set people off, including me. Your point here is nasty and irrelevant, gratuitously so. Either you have some other beef with this poster, or you have your own triggers that, as you accuse others of, you could not pass by without comment. But when you dismiss a very respectful post with your rudeness from prejudice, and then receive criticism for doing so, and then blame others for starting what you yourself escalated with this post, how can you be surprised or indignant or self-righteous about the fact that others may tire of your manner of discussion? Many people here responded to you reasonably, including Ptero in the post that you denigrate from prejudice. You're not wrong to pose the question in the OP, and several people answered respectfully. But you also got snippy and sarcastic, and then with Ptero you went off the rails of decency. The "adult" kind that you have been asking for yourself.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

Let's take a moment and revisit the posts from this respectful poster you mention. Links are Here, Here, and Here.

The first starts out with "I don't want to debate", and drops some bullshit about me not caring if 8-10% of the population dies and people's lives being more important than economic growth (as if that was what I was asserting). I passed on that one. No need to hit an ignore button, no need to comment, I just let it go.

The second one is how he wants an inverse "thanks" button. Snide insult, but ok I'll ignore that too.

The third post describes actions in his country, his perception of the populations acceptance, etc... Totally no problem from me with that. It's also the second time he mentioned WWII in his posts, not that it really is important; but he can't resist dropping the comment:

"Of course we donˋt have a military budget of 738 Billion dollars for 2020 like the US.
We have only a small defensive army which has additional a focus on supporting functions in crisis with 1,9 billion dollar budget (0.6% GDB)."

That's snide and has nothing to do with coronavirus. Fuck it, if he wants to talk about that, lets talk about it. My comment about his country is factually true. It's hyperbole and leaves a lot out (like how his and other countries were rebuilt with American dollars) and I don't really hold Austria responsible for 2 world wars. I'm being a sarcastic dick in response to a bunch of crap that seems to have been overlooked or ignored by other posters. Honestly, it's not really that insulting. It's a virtual smack on the back of the head. You guys act like I slapped the Pope in the middle of mass.

But let's be really honest, the mob was already gathering the torches and pitchforks well before that post. I just gave them a convenient excuse.

I've read this, just so you know (since you answered me), but I'm done here.

So people know my personal stake, I have a older brother in the isolation ward of a big city hospital with COVID-19. I don't give a shit about the economy. That will recover (and I am near retirement!) My brother may not. I consider it my job to sacrifice for ANY person still alive. This government should require those with money to give some up for these vulnerable people. We are, in some ways, an incredibly selfish society, worshipping money more than real brotherhood.



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I’m sorry to hear of your older brother, just as I’m sorry for everyone else this has affected. I hope he comes through ok.

To reiterate, I’m not advocating increasing risk to people. I’m not advocating making sure fat cat corporations are taken care of. I’m concerned about the lives of everyday people who have no source of income. I’m worried about small businesses that fail and do not reemploy people who depended on them for their income. I’m capable of being concerned about both. I don’t exclude worrying about people’s health to have concern for the economic impact. I understand the hardship and horrors (yes, horrors) that can result from economic calamity or collapse.

I worry about it precisely because we are an incredibly selfish society. The generation that lived through the depression were mostly self-sufficient, and knew how to do subsistence farming for example. They had no money, but they had food. That’s not the case anymore. Today’s society loses their mind when the internet goes out for a couple of hours.

[Brilliant Bill]

George Bernard Shaw was prescient. He foresaw the likes of dneal...

I had not achieved a success; but I provoked an uproar; and the sensation was so agreeable that I resolved to try again.

-George Bernard Shaw

[dneal]

Many people will misinterpret that quote.

[724Seney]

The offensiveness and sheer stupidity of dneal's maniacal (read: pathological) ranting, raving and vulgarity reminds me of another classic quote

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
Clark Gable in Gone With The Wind (1939)

I don't think people will misinterpret this quote. Except those, of course, who choose only to "PM" (sic) him!!!!

[dneal]

The offensiveness and sheer stupidity of dneal's maniacal (read: pathological) ranting, raving and vulgarity reminds me of another classic quote

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
Clark Gable in Gone With The Wind (1939)

I don't think people will misinterpret this quote. Except those, of course, who choose only to "PM" (sic) him!!!!

And I’m the nasty one... *rolleyes*

But you do you, mean girl.

[Chrissy]

I’m sorry to hear of your older brother, just as I’m sorry for everyone else this has affected. I hope he comes through ok.

To reiterate, I’m not advocating increasing risk to people. I’m not advocating making sure fat cat corporations are taken care of. I’m concerned about the lives of everyday people who have no source of income. I’m worried about small businesses that fail and do not reemploy people who depended on them for their income. I’m capable of being concerned about both. I don’t exclude worrying about people’s health to have concern for the economic impact. I understand the hardship and horrors (yes, horrors) that can result from economic calamity or collapse.

I worry about it precisely because we are an incredibly selfish society. The generation that lived through the depression were mostly self-sufficient, and knew how to do subsistence farming for example. They had no money, but they had food. That’s not the case anymore. Today’s society loses their mind when the internet goes out for a couple of hours.

This I agree with. I'm sorry about your older brother too TSherbs. I hope he will be OK.

Here in the UK many businesses have had to close. Those who sell "stock" will still have their stock available when they re-open and they should bounce back. If the worst came to the worst they could always sell their stock somehow.
My best friend and I had a long chat about this. She is a jeweller with two jewellery stores. She has £3 million worth of stock that she could sell back to the wholesale trade for at least half of that amount if she had to. However, she still needs some financial help because she has had to continue to pay wages until she had to close her stores last Monday. She has been trying to get through on the emergency government phone lines all week. She has waited for hours and hours in a queue of over 400 or over 500 people on the line. She has never been answered before the line suddenly cut-off. She told me about one guy who was given a number of over 1000 in the queue. He waited all day and all evening on the phone and it was eventually answered at 3am. Sadly he had fallen asleep and missed it.

However those who provide a service will be impacted more. Some of them live on very small profits. People might take a long time to return to those businesses. Those businesses will need some financial help and won't be getting anything before June. These will feel some economic impact.

Trump thinks he's going to get everybody in the US back to work very soon. Good luck to him. I think he's deluded there.