Second conklin sleeve filler sac melted on me

[lowks2]

I have had my second conklin sleeve filler sac melted away on me. This time I kept blue Robert Oster ink (fire and ice) in it for 2 weeks! Anyone had the same problem or where can i get replacements ?

[ms8109]

I had this same thing happen and was told it was the ink!


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[lowks2]

I had this same thing happen and was told it was the ink!


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What ink did you use and how did you eventually get the replacement. I am pretty sure that both the inks I used were different.

[Deb]

I'm told that it does happen that some sacs fail but that is very rare. Statistically it is vanishingly unlikely that you would get two. It looks like ink must be the culprit.

[dneal]

Not enough information. Did you buy a batch of sacs, and have two in a row fail with two different inks? That sounds like a quality control issue with the sacs. Did you buy two different Conklins and have sacs in both fail using two different inks? Still sounds like a bad batch of sacs.

[FredRydr]

...ink must be the culprit.

This^

[mhosea]

Statistically it is vanishingly unlikely that you would get two.

On the question of statistics (or rather probability), it would be rare to get two bad sacs if you dumped all the sacs in the world in a bin and drew two sacs at random from it. But latex sacs are made in batches. Two sacs from the same batch being bad? The conditional probability of getting two in a row bad given that the first one was bad and they came from the same batch? Probably not a small probability there. If I know this pen, it's in the category of pens that would be hard on sacs without some sort of metal inhibitor.

But that doesn't mean I think it was the sac. One of the things I never tried to account for was the effect of metal contact with the natural rubber providing ions that would be catalysts. I mean, it's not like I'm a chemist or anything like it, but in all the trials I had trying to make inks melt sacs, and failing, never did I attempt to provide this input to the system. I don't think I would have, because it sounds like a lot of work to engineer, but I'm kind of wondering if the metal + the sac + ink all three needed to be present to effect the melting, and I only ever had just the sac and the ink.

[Lloyd]

I thought Noodlers was always to blame. Any chance there's a bottle of BSB within a 10 mile radius of your house?

If there are any typos in this post, I blame Tapatalk!

[lowks2]

Not enough information. Did you buy a batch of sacs, and have two in a row fail with two different inks? That sounds like a quality control issue with the sacs. Did you buy two different Conklins and have sacs in both fail using two different inks? Still sounds like a bad batch of sacs.

First time it melted using Aurora Black, sent it back to be replaced by brick and mortar shop, replaced then second time around it came back from service replaced with new sac then used Robert Oster Fire and Ice. Both time same result.

[dneal]

Not enough information. Did you buy a batch of sacs, and have two in a row fail with two different inks? That sounds like a quality control issue with the sacs. Did you buy two different Conklins and have sacs in both fail using two different inks? Still sounds like a bad batch of sacs.

First time it melted using Aurora Black, sent it back to be replaced by brick and mortar shop, replaced then second time around it came back from service replaced with new sac then used Robert Oster Fire and Ice. Both time same result.

Well that's odd indeed, and I don't think of Aurora Black as a troublesome ink. It appears that ink might not be the issue.

Did you look at the sac and see if it was "melted", or did you just note there was a leak. It might simply be something piercing the sac.

[FredRydr]

First time it melted using Aurora Black....

Oooo! That starts to change things. That's pretty innocuous stuff. Are you using unadulterated shellac?

I would stop using those sacs, contact the seller (retailer or the manufacturer such as Peter Amis) to describe what's been happening and when the sacs were purchased, and offer to return a sac to analyse. I hope you haven't mixed sacs from different purchase dates (i.e., from different batches or manufacturers).

Meanwhile, bite the bullet and buy fresh sacs.

P.S. Did the sac actually dissolve, or did its contents look like melted rubber?

[KBeezie]

First time it melted using Aurora Black, sent it back to be replaced by brick and mortar shop, replaced then second time around it came back from service replaced with new sac then used Robert Oster Fire and Ice. Both time same result.

When I first read the thread, my first thought was that maybe RO Fire & Ice is on the alkaline side of pH much like most of Iroshizuku's inks being over 9.x , which latex sacs do not like, especially aged sacs.

But then you say this, and I'm thinking, Aurora Black tests out to 6.5~6.9, it's damn near straight up water (7), and anything more acidic than that would be just fine for latex sacs, so the shop is probably using a really bad batch, since even with alkaline ink, it should take a few months for a latex sac under repeated filling to start breaking down.

Either that or said brick and mortar shop is recycling ancient sacs that they deemed still good because they're still pliable and untorn (but aged sacs will likely start rupturing within weeks if it's that far gone).

[KBeezie]

Far as replacement sacs, if you want to have it where you don't have to worry about the ink you use (especially as most modern inks don't take into account latex sacs, despite some more expensive pens like the modern Decoband using them), then you'll want to use either a silicone sac, or PVC sac.

It's why I replaced the sac in my 1964 Pilot Super 250 with a PVC sac (since it's encased in a sac protector with a quarter turn filler knob, and the gasket is lucite), so that I could use Iroshizuku inks in it (since previously using Iroshizuku Syo-ro ruptured the latex sac I had before the most recent re-saccing).

If the Conklin you are re-saccing is celluloid or vegetal resin (similar stuff Noodler's pens have that smells), then use silicone sacs. If it's hard rubber, modern plastic, or metal (and the grip/nipple area is not celluloid, such as visulated grips), you can use PVC sacs.

Silicone is inert and should be able to handle all the inks, and won't seep any chemical into the surrounding pen material and can keep it's shape for years, it's just as resilient as latex. But it's gas permeable, so ink is more likely to evaporate the water content more quickly especially with a poor fitting cap, and you can't just store pen sideways (or upside down like a desk pen) without it leaking overnight, have to keep it upright when not in use. But you also cannot use shellac with silicone, have to use a Silicone adhesive like Loctite 908570.

PVC is pretty strong and springy (such as the Pil-Glass used in the Parker 51 Aeros for years), but it will attack and merge with celluloid and soft plastics, causing the celluloid to become soft and squishy as the plasticizer gets destroyed. Doesn't suffer the gas permeability issue though. Can use PVC in most modern plastics, or pens that use a sac protector like the Sheaffer Snorkel, Parker Slimfold, or like my Pilot Super 250. You can also use shellac with PVC.

Latex is still preferred if you can limit your ink selection, as it's pretty strong resistance (except in the case of alkaline), and tear resistance, but ages poorly compared to either silicone or PVC.

Once you got that replaced, you mainly just have to worry about clogging and staining of highly saturated fountain pen inks, since 14K/18K gold, and ebonite feeds/grips are quite resilient to either acidic or alkaline inks.
(PS: PVC/Vinyl sacs will stain pretty easily, so don't rely on it's clarity forever, just look at some of the old Parker 21 and 51 aero sacs over the years).

[lowks2]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

[KBeezie]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

[lowks2]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

Because of the pen or because of Yafa ?

[FredRydr]

I think the "good luck with that" comment comes from the odd mix of "modern" and "ink sac." Where are Conklin parts made? If China, the sacs might come from there, where quality control might be out of control. If sourced from the USA, they may very well have come from The Sac Co, and you could contact Peter Amis for an explanation. But really, given the price of a sac, I'd just buy fresh sacs and move on.

[dneal]

But really, given the price of a sac, I'd just buy fresh sacs and move on.

This.

[Ron Z]

This is an argument that has gone on for almost as long as I've been in the business full time. I do see a lot of failed sacs, and damage related to inks. One individual has done some more scientific testing, and concluded that the dye saturated inks, and one brand in particular, are connected with premature failure of sacs. I've also seen problems with red inks, or inks that contain red like brown or purple, causing sacs to fail in fairly short order. Such may be the case here. But, I've also seen premature failure in cases where the latex sac comes in contact with a metal sac guard. In that case, I use a PVC sac (the supply is dwindling) or make sure that the sac has a good coating of talc before I close up the pen.

I buy my sacs from the Pen Sac Company. About 17 years ago Woodbin has a problem with a bunch of sacs, and Vac diaphragms in particular, failing rather quickly because they were missing an ingredient that prevented decay when in contact with metal. I assume that those are long out of circulation, but if others than the PSC are making sacs, the problem could rear its ugly head again.

There are those who argue that the pen manufacturer's ink VS what I call "boutique" inks is no longer valid. I disagree. I still see the failed sacs, and it does seem to be related to inks. We don't usually see the problem with the standard Pelikan, Montblanc, Auroa , Waterman etc. The problem with Aurora mentioned above makes me think of other possible causes because I rarely if ever see problems with any Aurora ink.

For those who are interested, I wrote a blog post about types of sacs and their strengths and weaknesses some time ago. I think that its still valid.

[KBeezie]

gotten in touch with Yafa. waiting for response.

Oh it's a modern Conklin... good luck with that.

Because of the pen or because of Yafa ?

Both in this sense, since YAFA has an issue with quality control with most the brands they own. I can't exactly see them picking out quality sacs. If you were able to disassemble the pen yourself without much issues I would just replace the sac with either silicone or PVC (depending on the barrel material), and not worry much about your ink choices.

But for Aurora black (pretty much pH neutral) to rupture a fresh sac... that has to be a pretty poor sac quality.

If two sacs from them chemically ruptured (ie: if it was handled by Yafa versus the brick and mortar store using their own material), then I don't think third time is going to be a charm from them.