Taking a break

[guyy]

For what it's worth... As I like to say, viva the goddamn difference!

I'll give an Amen to that, sister. FWIW, I've hopefully corrected my miscommunication with Deb through the back channel. She's good with me now.

Hooray for communication and working things out.

[hogwldfltr]

For what it's worth... As I like to say, viva the goddamn difference!

I'll give an Amen to that, sister. FWIW, I've hopefully corrected my miscommunication with Deb through the back channel. She's good with me now.

Hooray for communication and working things out.

Regardless how good she may be with me, her decision wasn't as a result of our interaction nor has it changed; there were others that make her feel she needs to take a break. I'll leave it at that.

[Johnny_S]

Good job Hog.

[azkid]

Big thumbs up!

[Johnny_S]

For what it's worth... I was replying to that thread under discussion when it was deleted.

Hogwldfltr, a new member, had come across an old thread that apparently was spam, but he made some innocuous comment (something like "reading is a great way to improve your vocabulary"). This was just after the Lord of the Flies incident (how I remember it) of bullying Empty_of_Clouds off fpg. (I don't understand how an ignore function is necessary when there is a perfectly useful one in one's brain, but there you go and here we are.)

Chrissy remarked that it was strange (or some such) that a newcomer should unearth an old thread that should have been deleted as spam long ago. For a new member, it could sound critical and unwelcoming, with a hint of accusation. OR... just an idle remark if you were familiar with the denizens of this place. Which a new member would not be.

Hogwldfltr responded with some, let's say, surprise with a dash of mild affront -- until the usual defensive team rushed in to shut him up. (It might have been only Deb. I don't remember.)

It just spiralled out of control so quickly. I'm attributing the hair-trigger backbiting to this... global stress we are all under. But we are all (all of us!) under it. So my tendency is to step back, not respond immediately. (Actually, years of Internet use taught me that.) And to give others, especially newcomers, the benefit of a doubt.

Meanwhile, those of you who are so quick to "school" others on how to get along here, put yourself in the other person's shoes. Would you listen to you?

Also, why all this mania to control other people's tones and opinions? Is it so hard to have a conversation without the undertone of bullying? Sheesh.

As I like to say, viva the goddamn difference!

The opinion of others is welcomed by most, I would hope but we have seen very aggressive positions adopted by people when the opinions of others disagreed with theirs. When these aggressive positions are a contiinuation of comments over the past 4 years and are accelerating then at some point you have to draw a line and say enough.


I would like to give you an illustration, I had some people round for food not so long ago, one couple arrived mid heated discussion and decided to continue that discussion over the dinner table. Five people were upset at this behaviour and said that they were going to leave. I took the man outside and said as calmly as I could, you are spoiling the evening for everyone, people are leaving, you do not need to be so aggressive, take it easy, be part of the dinner conversation and enjoy it.

By your logic, he could have said to me that I had no right to try and control people's tones and opinions, and also that I had no right to censor how he spoke and what foul language he used, it was his choice, not mine He could have said 'Well just ignore me, let me continue to speak to my partner as I want in whatever manner I want, I dont want to be controlled by your rules, I am an old engineer and this is me, take it or leave it.

If he had said that to me that I would have asked him to leave. However, he came back in and was a different person, he enjoyed the rest of the evening.


But back to FPG, When more respected members say, 'sod this for a game of soldiers, I will be back in the future'. Without naming names you will see that there are a number of people who have been absent in recent weeks, these people helped build FPG and have been supporters of the site, they are important and FPG is the poorer without their partcipation.

I have known you for a number of years on both forums and we have been Facebook friends, I have the greatest respect for you and the diplomacy and common sense that you show but I think that you are seeing the bullying from the wrong direction, you are seeing and criticising the symptoms and reactions and not the cause.

[Chrissy]

For what it's worth... I was replying to that thread under discussion when it was deleted.

Hogwldfltr, a new member, had come across an old thread that apparently was spam, but he made some innocuous comment (something like "reading is a great way to improve your vocabulary"). This was just after the Lord of the Flies incident (how I remember it) of bullying Empty_of_Clouds off fpg. (I don't understand how an ignore function is necessary when there is a perfectly useful one in one's brain, but there you go and here we are.)

Chrissy remarked that it was strange (or some such) that a newcomer should unearth an old thread that should have been deleted as spam long ago. For a new member, it could sound critical and unwelcoming, with a hint of accusation. OR... just an idle remark if you were familiar with the denizens of this place. Which a new member would not be.

Hogwldfltr responded with some, let's say, surprise with a dash of mild affront -- until the usual defensive team rushed in to shut him up. (It might have been only Deb. I don't remember.)

It just spiralled out of control so quickly. I'm attributing the hair-trigger backbiting to this... global stress we are all under. But we are all (all of us!) under it. So my tendency is to step back, not respond immediately. (Actually, years of Internet use taught me that.) And to give others, especially newcomers, the benefit of a doubt.

Meanwhile, those of you who are so quick to "school" others on how to get along here, put yourself in the other person's shoes. Would you listen to you?

Also, why all this mania to control other people's tones and opinions? Is it so hard to have a conversation without the undertone of bullying? Sheesh.

As I like to say, viva the goddamn difference!

The opinion of others is welcomed by most, I would hope, we have seen very aggressive positions adopted by people when the opinions of others disagreed with theirs. When these aggressive positions are replicated over the past 4 years and are accelerating then at some point you have to say should this bully be in the community.

Isn't this down to respect?

I had some people round for food not so long ago, one couple arrived mid heated discussion and decided to continue over the dinner table. Five people said that they were going to leave. I took the man outside and said as calmly as I could, you are spoiling the evening for everyone, people are leaving, you do not need to be so aggressive, take it easy, be part of the dinner conversation and enjoy it.

By your logic, he could have said to me that I had no right to try and control people's tones and opinions, and also that I had no right to censor how he spoke and what foul language he spoke, it was his choice. He could have said 'Well just ignore me, let me continue to speak to my partner as I want in whatever manner I want, I dont want to be controlled by your rules, I am an old engineer and this is me, take it or leave it.

If he had said that to me that I would have asked him to leave. He came back in and was a different person and enjoyed the rest of the evening.


But back to FPG, When more respected members say, 'sod this for a game of soldiers, I will be back in the future'. Without naming names you will see that there are a number of people who have been absent in recent weeks, these people helped build FPG and have been supporters of the site. they are important and FPG is the poorer without their partcipation.

I have known you for a number of years on both forums and we have been Facebook friends, I have the greatest respect for you and the diplomacy and common sense that you show but I think that you are seeing the bullying from the wrong direction, you are seeing and criticising the symptoms and reactions and not the cause.

I have decided to come and clear up exactly what happened here while I remember it: on April 3rd or 4th hogwldfltr posted the comment "you could read a book" on a long dead spammers thread about education from 2017 that had not been deleted by Eric.

To make it clear to anyone else who might come along to post on that long dead and buried 3 year old spammers thread that may still contain a clickable link, I merely posted something like "Oh this is an old spammers thread." At the same time, I pressed the Report button on the original post and reported that it was an old spammers thread. I never thought any more about it.
I did not address my post to hogwldfltr, like here, where I'm addressing this to you by quoting your posts. I had nothing against him at all, and had already posted a welcome message on his new member thread.

However, hogwldfltr came back and replied directly to me (by quoting my post) "I'm surprised you felt the need to critique." I was completely gobsmacked when I read this, because nothing was further from my mind when I posted my original comment. I wasn't even talking to him let alone critiquing anything. But maybe because he was new, and I then thought he must be very young, I tried to explain that my comment was merely suggesting it was very unusual for Eric to not have deleted a spammers thread. I also said there was no critique intended and, probably unwisely, posted the meaning of the verb critique, foolishly trying to confirm there was definitely no critique. I also posted a smiley to make it clear no grievances were involved.

hogwldfltr then came back again and posted his own version of the meaning of the verb "critique" to fit in with what he thought I had done, and said some other snarky comment that I don't remember. So I decided to end the conversation and gave him a bad reputation mark for his latest post. After all he had none so I knew it made absolutely no difference to him. He then edited his previous post by mentioning the reputation and typing "dilligaf" about it. I think Deb might have posted a comment on the thread about him having a bit of a hair-trigger at this point. No-one else posted on the thread.

Then Eric presumably read the report and he removed the thread. With that went all of the posts and the reputation comment. Everything went back to normal. Apart from the fact I was already considering giving up posting on here then.

[ethernautrix]

Chrissy.

Tensions have been high around here lately, well before the zapped-thread "controversy."

Your reply to newcomer hogwldfltr's innocuous comment began with "it's interesting that you found...." It's this part of your reply that could be interpreted as subtly yet pointedly accusatory to a new member. And then Deb stepped in and tried to squash the quibbling, and her coming to your defense could be perceived as bullying (which, since a bunch of fed-up, tense people went on a gleeful ignore spree, sounded likely (to someone without a dog in this race)). But since yesterday, I've read another thread where hogwldfltr and Deb have clashed. So I can see how the misunderstanding quickly led to a meltdown.

It all pivoted on the word "you," changing a neutral comment into a sort of attack when someone might be predisposed to feeling beat up here.

But it seems that that crisis is over, as hogwldfltr and Deb have cleared the air between them, and we in the peanut gallery can rest easy that peace reigns in the land.

Hahaha, I'm kidding. There'll be outrage soon enough. Me, I've got my face mask, hand sanitizer, liquid soap, bar of soap, eye mask, and an outrage-deflection suit. (It's just my skin, but it's thick.)

[hogwldfltr]

And really, my post to a dead thread didn't need to be followed immediately by a comment about posting to dead threads. That still to me is a critique whether meant or not. It was a trivial thing and my comment was valid about how to have improved ability to choose alternative words. I also knew it had been a spammer's thread but felt even in the worst beginnings good things can come. To me it still seems snarky following up as it was. (Sorry, Chrissy) The Bad rep point also felt extremely unwarranted and again extremely snarky. That sort of snarky comment is what I've seen in other forums done as a knee jerk reaction and put down done by people who give little thought to what they write.

It comes down to what sort of environment this forum wants to maintain. From the writer's perspective, me, writing in a thread that was clearly a spam thread, something innocuous, it certainly didn't need to be commented as it was. From a new comers perspective to receive those sort of inputs makes this environment really nasty and dirty. And from a reasonable persons perspective, receiving that sort of follow-up on something so petty additionally makes me say that DILLIGAF is an apropos response. This because it seemed extremely trite and uncalled for.

One other point, if this is a moderated forum, I assume that it is, the roll of moderators in many other forums I've been in is to set a standard and to take out the trash. In this case the trash is a spam thread that was left as a ticking time bomb. I think if the reason the duties weren't preformed was due to being overcome by too much to handle then additional mods are needed. If the reason the tasks aren't preformed is for lack of care, than perhaps different mods are needed. Take my words as you would. This is my perspective.

[Johnny_S]

Just when Lisa throws you a life preserver you go and find a deeper ocean.

[Chuck Naill]

My take is hogwidfltr likes to stir the pot and then complain that he has been maligned. Now he's saying it comes down to what kind of a environment the forum wants to maintain. Was anyone complaining before he arrived? Was Chrissy here? Was Deb here? Were they responding to questions about fountain pens? Now that they are gone, will hogwifglr be able to take their place and help new FP users and collectors? So, if I had to evaluate the environment, it is not better for having lost two pen experts. Both of these formerly active members took the time to answer a thread and request for help.

[ethernautrix]

For what it's worth... I was replying to that thread under discussion when it was deleted.

Hogwldfltr, a new member, had come across an old thread that apparently was spam, but he made some innocuous comment (something like "reading is a great way to improve your vocabulary"). This was just after the Lord of the Flies incident (how I remember it) of bullying Empty_of_Clouds off fpg. (I don't understand how an ignore function is necessary when there is a perfectly useful one in one's brain, but there you go and here we are.)

Chrissy remarked that it was strange (or some such) that a newcomer should unearth an old thread that should have been deleted as spam long ago. For a new member, it could sound critical and unwelcoming, with a hint of accusation. OR... just an idle remark if you were familiar with the denizens of this place. Which a new member would not be.

Hogwldfltr responded with some, let's say, surprise with a dash of mild affront -- until the usual defensive team rushed in to shut him up. (It might have been only Deb. I don't remember.)

It just spiralled out of control so quickly. I'm attributing the hair-trigger backbiting to this... global stress we are all under. But we are all (all of us!) under it. So my tendency is to step back, not respond immediately. (Actually, years of Internet use taught me that.) And to give others, especially newcomers, the benefit of a doubt.

Meanwhile, those of you who are so quick to "school" others on how to get along here, put yourself in the other person's shoes. Would you listen to you?

Also, why all this mania to control other people's tones and opinions? Is it so hard to have a conversation without the undertone of bullying? Sheesh.

As I like to say, viva the goddamn difference!

The opinion of others is welcomed by most, I would hope but we have seen very aggressive positions adopted by people when the opinions of others disagreed with theirs. When these aggressive positions are a contiinuation of comments over the past 4 years and are accelerating then at some point you have to draw a line and say enough.


I would like to give you an illustration, I had some people round for food not so long ago, one couple arrived mid heated discussion and decided to continue that discussion over the dinner table. Five people were upset at this behaviour and said that they were going to leave. I took the man outside and said as calmly as I could, you are spoiling the evening for everyone, people are leaving, you do not need to be so aggressive, take it easy, be part of the dinner conversation and enjoy it.

By your logic, he could have said to me that I had no right to try and control people's tones and opinions, and also that I had no right to censor how he spoke and what foul language he used, it was his choice, not mine He could have said 'Well just ignore me, let me continue to speak to my partner as I want in whatever manner I want, I dont want to be controlled by your rules, I am an old engineer and this is me, take it or leave it.

If he had said that to me that I would have asked him to leave. However, he came back in and was a different person, he enjoyed the rest of the evening.


But back to FPG, When more respected members say, 'sod this for a game of soldiers, I will be back in the future'. Without naming names you will see that there are a number of people who have been absent in recent weeks, these people helped build FPG and have been supporters of the site, they are important and FPG is the poorer without their partcipation.

I have known you for a number of years on both forums and we have been Facebook friends, I have the greatest respect for you and the diplomacy and common sense that you show but I think that you are seeing the bullying from the wrong direction, you are seeing and criticising the symptoms and reactions and not the cause.

[ETA: When pontificating about "you" blah, blah, blah, I mean the general "you," not you, Johnny_S. You (specifically) probably knew that.]


Johnny_S, you have me at a disadvantage. I don't recognize your screenname or your writing style. But it's true that I have been around for years, while going through phases of not being around, but for the past couple of years, I've been reading and skimming (certainly not all the threads, not even half, maybe not even half of half, if I count the sales threads).

This is not a dinner party, and this is not your house. At your dinner party, you took your offending guest aside and asked him to stop his belligerent behavior. You didn't browbeat and shame him in front of everyone and expect him to feel remorse and immediately correct his manners. And, since it is your house, you can avoid having him to dinner.

But what happens when someone behaves in a manner you object to on-line? What if all of your polite entreaties didn't work? Do you adopt the offending manner, to teach him a lesson? (I do this sometimes, IRL, to make a point, cos sometimes that's the only way a person will get it.) What is that doesn't work, but escalates the tension and bad feelings?

You can be responsible only for your own decisions. If someone refuses to toe your line, ignore him. Her. Don't let that bastard ruin your enjoyment of this place. Don't think that you're protecting others from the bastard's behavior. You can't. All you can do is refocus. What do you like about being here? Do that.

Okay, you could appeal to like-minded members and gang up on the bastard. All the while, your behavior and choices say something about you. Or, you could appeal to Eric and ask him to ban the bastard.

But who's going to make sure that the bastard hasn't contributed anything worthwhile to this forum? There was that pile-up on Empty_of_Clouds. Was he annoyingly self-pitying? Yup. [If you're reading this, David. You can be, and I don't want to talk about you behind your back. Anyway, it was easy for me to look past that.] Was he almost single-handedly starting the most threads that got the most traction? Yup. Instead of bullying him into leaving, why not start topics? Why not ignore his posts and make this place a more interesting place for others to relax and enjoy discussions?



Another interesting dynamic here (and maybe Eric has set this place up for Stephen Brown to psycho-analyze. Wow, etherX, that came out of left field. Yeah! I know!): Recently, ilikenails went off on dneal in a hysteria of invective. I get it. It's the zeitgeist of worldwide fear and uncertainty, and Dneal has unpopular opinions maybe, probably, but he's been around for ages, too, and has contributed so much of value (I'm remembering posts about or with stubs and photos and repair advice), and because ilikenails's opinions are more palatable to more people here, his attacks on dneal get "thanks" (positive reinforcement) for behavior that, if reversed, would have had dneal pilloried. No one else sees that?

(FWIW, I'm not in back-channel contact with anyone. I have friends in the pen world, you know, people who come to my home for dinner parties before or after pen shows. I'm not in a cabal with anyone here, and the IRL friends that used to be here went away long ago. Apparently there are other places... reddit, slack... I could probably write a list of nouns and most of them will be the name of a new app.)

I observed the attack on dneal with (I admit) a little amusement, at the futility of it, the impotence, since dneal obviously wasn't bothered by it. The dynamic reminded me of the Kids In the Hall skit where the little guy kept rushing at the big guy outside of a bar. That's how that situation read to me, and I'm pretty sure ilikenails didn't see it that way. And that illustrates my point about how we think we're coming across and how others might see a different picture.

Veering slighly off-topic: Two of the people I love most on earth [my brother and my best friend] are simlar in perhaps superficial ways: both tall, both men, both geniuses, both with an interest in history and politics and possessing an extraordinary memory, able to recall details and parse them and make connections (the trees and the forest)-- and yet they couldn't be further apart politically. One became an ardent Bernie supporter (perhaps in reaction against Trump); the other, who voted for a head of cabbage rather than choose between H. Clinton and Trump, has become a Trump supporter (because he sees politcal changes that he supports, even if he sees Trump as a Queens real-estate broker (you know, a bit of the flim-flam)).

One said to me recently (paraphrasing): "The problem with liberals is that they're so EMOTIONAL."

The other said to me separately, with no knowledge of the other conversation: "The problem with conservatives is that they're so EMOTIONAL."

Yeah. We're all emotional. Maybe recognizing that -- especially in ourselves -- is the first step to civilized discussions.

Or we can keep yelling at each other. I enjoy a good yell fest now and again. Maybe cos I'm not a genius. Hahaha. But, yeah, get it all out, you know? Let others get it all out. Then when everyone's calm... we can proceed... calmly.



Listen. I want to edit this, shorten it. But so many interruptions! And now lunch is arriving, and I have to change out of my pyjamas. The day is calling, and I have to answer.

[hogwldfltr]

Is that your motivation for being here, Chuck Naill? To have friends?

If so, are you being friendly?





P.S. No skin off my nose how anyone wants to behave in this sandbox. I'm giving my impression of what I observed, since there seems to be this jump to pile up on individuals. A little self-awareness about "friendliness" might hit the spot.

Yes, apparently so. No one is leaving because of a post I made. I am able discuss and learn which is my motivation in being here. I've had nothing but positive experiences here.

My take is hogwidfltr likes to stir the pot and then complain that he has been maligned. Now he's saying it comes down to what kind of a environment the forum wants to maintain. Was anyone complaining before he arrived? Was Chrissy here? Was Deb here? Were they responding to questions about fountain pens? Now that they are gone, will hogwifglr be able to take their place and help new FP users and collectors? So, if I had to evaluate the environment, it is not better for having lost two pen experts. Both of these formerly active members took the time to answer a thread and request for help.

Seems like you[re working hard to reverse this. As I told you prior take a look in a mirror. In twelve step language, take your own inventory. You have no knowledge of me and are little able to make accurate judgement.

One additional point, I was writing in parallel to Lisa and not in response or even with knowledge of what she had to say.

Frankly I appreciate her clarity and perspective.

Personally, I will almost always reply to pettiness harshly as it doesn't add to a conversation or to an environment.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. -Eldridge Cleaver

[Chuck Naill]

Is that your motivation for being here, Chuck Naill? To have friends?

If so, are you being friendly?





P.S. No skin off my nose how anyone wants to behave in this sandbox. I'm giving my impression of what I observed, since there seems to be this jump to pile up on individuals. A little self-awareness about "friendliness" might hit the spot.

Yes, apparently so. No one is leaving because of a post I made. I am able discuss and learn which is my motivation in being here. I've had nothing but positive experiences here.

My take is hogwidfltr likes to stir the pot and then complain that he has been maligned. Now he's saying it comes down to what kind of a environment the forum wants to maintain. Was anyone complaining before he arrived? Was Chrissy here? Was Deb here? Were they responding to questions about fountain pens? Now that they are gone, will hogwifglr be able to take their place and help new FP users and collectors? So, if I had to evaluate the environment, it is not better for having lost two pen experts. Both of these formerly active members took the time to answer a thread and request for help.

Seems like you[re working hard to reverse this. As I told you prior take a look in a mirror. In twelve step language, take your own inventory. You have no knowledge of me and are little able to make accurate judgement.

One additional point, I was writing in parallel to Lisa and not in response or even with knowledge of what she had to say.

Frankly I appreciate her clarity and perspective.

Personally, I will almost always reply to pettiness harshly as it doesn't add to a conversation or to an environment.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. -Eldridge Cleaver

I don't know you, but I have observed what you've written. So, to say you always reply in a particular way tells me that you lack self control. Who rationally chooses to act the same all the time? It tells me you allow others to control your responses.

Are you a part of the solution here? It appears to me you've thought you could say whatever you wanted and get by with it. You're getting some push back, and your response is to double down with more of the same. It reminds me of the concept of insanity as doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome.

At this point, if you leave there is nothing lost. If Deb and Chrissy choose to never come back, much is lost. If you were to apologize/own your crap, perhaps you could become part of the solution. Your choice.

[Johnny_S]

I have read all that and there is nothing, nothing at all that I can find to argue and disagree with.

You realise that I have a day to fill??

[ethernautrix]

Hahaha!

I finished eating and am procrastinating on tasks. I don't feel like editing. But I thought, wouldn't it be useful to point out how many of us are on this thread when we could be looking at John Twiss's beautiful pen?

But then... after we look at the beautiful pen, what then?

Hahaha.

Have a lovely day!

[grainweevil]

I looked at the pen. No aspect of it appeals to me. However, I instantly realised that it would be neither the time nor place to say so and some things are better left unsaid. I'm feeling increasingly proud of possessing this apparent superpower, now so rarely found...

[Chuck Naill]

I hope to see her interesting replies soon. Some recent replies are boring and down right odd.

[Chrissy]

I hope to see her interesting replies soon.

I popped in close to my birthday to mention this act of kindness
It might not be that interesting...

[Marsilius]

Oops, duplicate reply.

[Marsilius]

I hope to see her interesting replies soon.

I popped in close to my birthday to mention this act of kindness
It might not be that interesting...

Thanks, Chrissy. I am happy you are here. I always like your ink reviews, and they are especially soothing nowadays. Happy upcoming B-Day!