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  1. #141
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    China denies entry to the World Health Organisation investigating Covid outbreak.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55555466


    Does anyone else have an opinion on this matter?
    Can anyone be surprised?
    Surprised or not, choosing to not sit at the table and be a part of the conversation helps no one and only hinders yourself.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Since I work with a healthcare agency and have contact with families and patients, I got an email in late December to get a COVID-19 vaccine. My first dose was January 6 and the booster or second February 4th. I received the Moderna brand. The first dose was uneventful. The second I had injection site pain and later soreness and felt tired. These events went away by Saturday morning. The people I know who had contracted COVID-19 experienced more adverse events from the first and second doses. All of this anecdotal and you may not have any post injection events.

    For the first dose I waited about an hour in a long line outside a large convention center. I had an appointment for the second dose and was in and out including the post injection 15 minute wait for about 30 minutes.

    Someone actually said they would rather have the virus than the vaccine. While they are very welcome to not take the vaccine, I would prefer 36 hours of adverse events than take the risk of being on a ventilator. Here is seems so many want it but can't get it and those who could refuse. As with all medical interventions, its a risk vs benefit.

    I was listening to an interview where back in the '80's AID was killing so many and people were asking for medical research. Now the research was performed and so many refuse the help. And, they even refuse to wear a mask. I am personally starting to wear two mask at times like the grocery. I see mask wearing the same as wearing gloves or a respirator. Why it become such an issue is beyond me

    Just read that the same people who demonstrated over being asked to wear a mask, were critical of the election, are now demonstrating where vaccines are being provided. Besides everything else, these folks sure have a lot of time on their hands.
    .
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; February 7th, 2021 at 05:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Since I work with a healthcare agency and have contact with families and patients, I got an email in late December to get a COVID-19 vaccine. My first dose was January 6 and the booster or second February 4th. I received the Moderna brand. The first dose was uneventful. The second I had injection site pain and later soreness and felt tired. These events went away by Saturday morning. The people I know who had contracted COVID-19 experienced more adverse events from the first and second doses. All of this anecdotal and you may not have any post injection events.

    For the first dose I waited about an hour in a long line outside a large convention center. I had an appointment for the second dose and was in and out including the post injection 15 minute wait for about 30 minutes.

    Someone actually said they would rather have the virus than the vaccine. While they are very welcome to not take the vaccine, I would prefer 36 hours of adverse events than take the risk of being on a ventilator. Here is seems so many want it but can't get it and those who could refuse. As with all medical interventions, its a risk vs benefit.

    I was listening to an interview where back in the '80's AID was killing so many and people were asking for medical research. Now the research was performed and so many refuse the help. And, they even refuse to wear a mask. I am personally starting to wear two mask at times like the grocery. I see mask wearing the same as wearing gloves or a respirator. Why it become such an issue is beyond me

    Just read that the same people who demonstrated over being asked to wear a mask, were critical of the election, are now demonstrating where vaccines are being provided. Besides everything else, these folks sure have a lot of time on their hands.
    .
    It doesn't make a sod of difference to me, I am as close to being a sociopath that you will find outside of an institution but for a man in a caring profession do you think that you show your best side when it comes to posting on here?

    As I said, I stopped caring some years ago but I am just aware of an apparent dichotomy in your case, others are constant pricks when they are not talking about pens but for you, good man one day..........

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  6. #144
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Since I work with a healthcare agency and have contact with families and patients, I got an email in late December to get a COVID-19 vaccine. My first dose was January 6 and the booster or second February 4th. I received the Moderna brand. The first dose was uneventful. The second I had injection site pain and later soreness and felt tired. These events went away by Saturday morning. The people I know who had contracted COVID-19 experienced more adverse events from the first and second doses. All of this anecdotal and you may not have any post injection events.

    For the first dose I waited about an hour in a long line outside a large convention center. I had an appointment for the second dose and was in and out including the post injection 15 minute wait for about 30 minutes.

    Someone actually said they would rather have the virus than the vaccine. While they are very welcome to not take the vaccine, I would prefer 36 hours of adverse events than take the risk of being on a ventilator. Here is seems so many want it but can't get it and those who could refuse. As with all medical interventions, its a risk vs benefit.

    I was listening to an interview where back in the '80's AID was killing so many and people were asking for medical research. Now the research was performed and so many refuse the help. And, they even refuse to wear a mask. I am personally starting to wear two mask at times like the grocery. I see mask wearing the same as wearing gloves or a respirator. Why it become such an issue is beyond me

    Just read that the same people who demonstrated over being asked to wear a mask, were critical of the election, are now demonstrating where vaccines are being provided. Besides everything else, these folks sure have a lot of time on their hands.
    .
    It doesn't make a sod of difference to me, I am as close to being a sociopath that you will find outside of an institution but for a man in a caring profession do you think that you show your best side when it comes to posting on here?

    As I said, I stopped caring some years ago but I am just aware of an apparent dichotomy in your case, others are constant pricks when they are not talking about pens but for you, good man one day..........
    There is a cognitive dissonance I suppose. On the one hand one can go along to get along and on the other be an absolute horses rear in attempting to provide an alternative perspective.

    I can't speak for anyone besides myself.

    I am not an unhappy person, but I have survived much loss, disappointment, and BS from others. For me I decided to live in the present and love my family and friends.

    There is a concept in health care called "informed consent". If you decide to do some, at least get yourself informed.

  7. #145
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Atlantic Magazine article on why the second vaccine shot might feel so bad, at least for a few days. As best I understand, the first shot sets up; second shot fully activates protection.

    Details here:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ffects/617892/

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Atlantic Magazine article on why the second vaccine shot might feel so bad, at least for a few days. As best I understand, the first shot sets up; second shot fully activates protection.

    Details here:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ffects/617892/
    For me, that was the exact reasoning I was expecting some events to occur. No pain, no gain.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    I just got my second shot on Friday (2/5)--I had an unconfirmed case back in March (with long-term symptoms incl. heart palpitations, chest pain, sweaty palms, fatigue, loss of muscle control...), but did not have anything past a sore arm with both shots of the Moderna vaccine. My arm was actually less sore this second shot! Lots of variance in the extent of side effects--but at least we know they clear up in a couple days. And no one loses their sense of smell!
    Will
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Someone actually said they would rather have the virus than the vaccine. While they are very welcome to not take the vaccine, I would prefer 36 hours of adverse events than take the risk of being on a ventilator.
    Having the virus is nature's vaccine, nearly 100% effective. I had it a year ago, and it was like a really bad case of the flu. Everyone except one or two people in the office had it, and it does spread quite readily. We had all recovered before the quarantines even started. For most people, it was more a huge annoyance than anything else. Some people even took sick days. Nobody I know who had it has caught it again.

    What some folks fail to realize is that there are plenty of people who will die from a bad case of the flu. Saying COVID is like the flu is not trivializing its effects. I will get the vaccine when it is available to ordinary people. Why not? It is the en vogue thing to do. Sure it might kill me, just like COVID might have, but that won't turn me into an anti-vaxxer. The only thing certain about life is that it ends in death. Fretting about it does little good.

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    Senior Member fountainpenkid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Someone actually said they would rather have the virus than the vaccine. While they are very welcome to not take the vaccine, I would prefer 36 hours of adverse events than take the risk of being on a ventilator.
    Having the virus is nature's vaccine, nearly 100% effective. I had it a year ago, and it was like a really bad case of the flu. Everyone except one or two people in the office had it, and it does spread quite readily. We had all recovered before the quarantines even started. For most people, it was more a huge annoyance than anything else. Some people even took sick days. Nobody I know who had it has caught it again.

    What some folks fail to realize is that there are plenty of people who will die from a bad case of the flu. Saying COVID is like the flu is not trivializing its effects. I will get the vaccine when it is available to ordinary people. Why not? It is the en vogue thing to do. Sure it might kill me, just like COVID might have, but that won't turn me into an anti-vaxxer. The only thing certain about life is that it ends in death. Fretting about it does little good.
    Previous infection does almost always confer immunity for some period of time (at least a few months, it seems we can safely say) to the antigens your body was presented with; unfortunately, we are now dealing with new variants, most concerningly the South African 501.V2, which render people's immunity, in a significant number of cases, less than effective. Even if these reinfections are mostly asymptomatic, this complicates the picture of moving past this, because the virus will continue to kill and mame those who remain susceptible. This is what happens when diseases fester: they evolve.
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; February 7th, 2021 at 06:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    ...For most people, it was more a huge annoyance than anything else.
    What a disgusting simplification of one of our most deadly pandemics of all times.

    "Most people"..."inconvenience"

    On behalf of the 467, 000+ dead Americans and 2.3 million world-wide (12th deadliest pandemic world-wide all time and in just 12 months and still growing), on behalf of every person over 45 for whom this has become one of the top 5 deadly killers, fuck you. The CDC lists twice as many references to COVID19 as contributing to death as to flu and pneumonia COMBINED, AT EVERY AGE GROUP. Are you really this stupid? And ADULT?

    You're a moral and empathetic imbecile You all seem to collect here in these back threads of this pen site. What a fucking cesspool.
    Last edited by TSherbs; February 7th, 2021 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    What a disgusting simplification of one of our most deadly pandemics of all times
    LMAO!!! That one really takes the cake.

    Thank god you teach english and not history.
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    ...For most people, it was more a huge annoyance than anything else.
    What a disgusting simplification of one of our most deadly pandemics of all times.

    "Most people"..."inconvenience"

    On behalf of the 467, 000+ dead Americans and 2.3 million world-wide (12th deadliest pandemic world-wide all time and in just 12 months and still growing), on behalf of every person over 45 for whom this has become one of the top 5 deadly killers, fuck you. The CDC lists twice as many references to COVID19 as contributing to death as to flu and pneumonia COMBINED, AT EVERY AGE GROUP. Are you really this stupid? And ADULT?

    You're a moral and empathetic imbecile You all seem to collect here in these back threads of this pen site. What a fucking cesspool.
    I don't mean to be charitable to those who dismiss this thing, but I think Pendragon was clearly just talking about their colleagues in their office, not the population as a whole. Your reaction seems out of proportion with the anecdote.

    That said, COVID is no flu! As you do point out, it is far more deadly than the flu across all age groups. And the way it attacks multiple types of human tissue, and causes long-term effects with surprising frequency is not something seen with the flu.
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; February 7th, 2021 at 07:54 PM. Reason: phrasing was accidentally misleading
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    ...For most people, it was more a huge annoyance than anything else.
    What a disgusting simplification of one of our most deadly pandemics of all times.

    "Most people"..."inconvenience"

    On behalf of the 467, 000+ dead Americans and 2.3 million world-wide (12th deadliest pandemic world-wide all time and in just 12 months and still growing), on behalf of every person over 45 for whom this has become one of the top 5 deadly killers, fuck you. The CDC lists twice as many references to COVID19 as contributing to death as to flu and pneumonia COMBINED, AT EVERY AGE GROUP. Are you really this stupid? And ADULT?

    You're a moral and empathetic imbecile You all seem to collect here in these back threads of this pen site. What a fucking cesspool.
    Just quoting what a douche you are for posterity.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    ...For most people, it was more a huge annoyance than anything else.
    What a disgusting simplification of one of our most deadly pandemics of all times.

    "Most people"..."inconvenience"
    That is the way it was, whether you like it or not. It is not a simplification at all. We were all hella sick, but still able to show up to work. Nobody even knew COVID had arrived in the US at the time. Do you realize how many people are killed by influenza each year? For most people, though, it is more an uncomfortable nuisance than anything else.

    On behalf of the 467, 000+ dead Americans and 2.3 million world-wide (12th deadliest pandemic world-wide all time and in just 12 months and still growing), on behalf of every person over 45 for whom this has become one of the top 5 deadly killers, fuck you.
    But you don't speak for them, and are simply offering your opinion, albeit in a rather triggered way.

    The CDC lists twice as many references to COVID19 as contributing to death as to flu and pneumonia COMBINED, AT EVERY AGE GROUP. Are you really this stupid? And ADULT?

    You're a moral and empathetic imbecile You all seem to collect here in these back threads of this pen site. What a fucking cesspool.
    You act like a badly behaved child with a potty mouth and ask whether I am stupid and an adult? LOL Then again, this is a post your contentions posts thread, so perhaps that is to be expected. Anyways, assuming a mortality rate of 2%-4%, that is still a 96+ percent survival rate. So for the overwhelming majority, the disease is not fatal. I never said that those who perished were unimportant or that their lives did not matter. Of course everything should be done to save as many lives as possible. And also to limit the tremendous economic damage resulting from the pandemic.
    Last edited by Pendragon; February 7th, 2021 at 09:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Pendragon, you seem to forget we do live in the 21st century. That is really the key to ALL of this--not the least TSherbs' slightly overdone righteous indignation. What I mean is that we no longer think it is remotely acceptable for a couple percent of the population to suddenly be wiped out by the latest disease. Perhaps at our own peril, we have become sure, societally-speaking, that infectious disease should be relegated to a new human-engineered status at margins of human suffering.

    And also, 4% odds--who would take them? If there's anything I've learned from personally having the disease, it's that this best of all possible words has never been about the individual--on the individual level, it is never wise to discount the unlikely.** That goes for everyone right now: even those who have almost no chance of dying from it. I thought hell, I'm 23, I didn't have it that bad, I'll be fine. And then it stayed with me for months. It still does, as I wrote earlier. And there are now millions of people in my boat, most with even worse symptoms. Postviral syndromes are not unique to COVID, but this will multiply the problem many times over. And if we want to get all utilitarian here, do not discount the loss of human productivity this causes. Do not discount the scars of mass grief.



    **I of course want to make a clear distinction between the unlikely and the rare. Recently-recovered people becoming reinfected after a month--let's just forget about the South African variant curveball for now--is not unlikely, it is profoundly rare. Of course those recently-recovered people can reasonably spare themselves COVID-specific precautions. Of course a 20-year-old w/ no underlying issues should not fret about dying from the virus. But an 80-year old should--there's a 1-in-10 chance they would. This is an orders of magnitude thing.
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; February 7th, 2021 at 10:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Pendragon, you seem to forget we do live in the 21st century. That is really the key to ALL of this--not the least TSherbs' slightly overdone righteous indignation. What I mean is that we no longer think it is remotely acceptable for a couple percent of the population to suddenly be wiped out by the latest disease. Perhaps at our own peril, we have become sure, societally-speaking, that infectious disease should be relegated to a new human-engineered status at margins of human suffering.
    Did we ever think that it is acceptable? I doubt it, and I certainly don't think that it is today. The majority being only temporarily affected does not imply that measures should not be taken to save the remaining few percent, and to treat those with lingering symptoms. Few in percentage, large in absolute numbers, each of which counts. Or better yet, to prevent them from getting infected in the first place. Also, ranting and cussing up a storm is far from being a slightly overdone righteous indignation. Regardless of what we might want to believe, COVID-19 and its variants might be here to stay, flu's more evil twin. Hopefully, the current vaccinations will wipe it out in 2021.

    Attention is focused on COVID itself right now, but much less on the small businesses that are being wiped out. At some point, people's need for food and shelter will outweigh their fear of the disease and the penalties for breaking quarantine. They can't do that without jobs, and the economic pain is both severe and real. A very large number of people have been thrown out of work and many businesses shuttered for good. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that is not a good situation. The authorities had better figure out how to handle this dilemma soon. Their self-serving and politically infused approaches need to change.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    I meant by "remotely acceptable" that for most of human history, we could do little to nothing to stop plagues tearing through populations.* Of course, the elites, then as now, could shutter themselves away for a long while, and fare better. *And let's not forget how this conveniently set the stage for European takeovers of the Americas.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the absolutely unsustainable nature of shutdowns. Complete shutdowns are in many cases too extreme and have tragic impacts of their own. Businesses, yes (we lost our favorite restaurant to this pandemic, like many), and children too: remote learning is a terrible setback in their education. Lower schools should be opened and governments need to suck it up and put the work in to make them more safe (ventilation, capacity, schedule design etc.) I don't think the current administration is doing enough--getting more vaccines made by suspending patents and giving them to teachers, making N95 masks and distributing them to the population (that would do a TON if most people wore them, and wore them properly), funding treatment research, which was overlooked during The Apricot's term....
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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Man prefers prison to living with his family in Lockdown

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...uiet-in-prison

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    I was never in a lock down mode. I simply began wearing a mask the first of April 2020 and keeping my distance. I would go to youth sporting events and be the only person attending with a mask. Yes, I got some strange looks. As someone in healthcare, I went into homes and healthcare facilities and always wearing gloves, face mask and plastic sheild. I cannot believe I test negative each Monday, but I have.

    I have now had both the intial and booster Moderna vaccine.


    Had Americans simply followed the CDC guidlines as information evolved or understood the aerosolized nature of COVID-19, many would not have died and shut downs and lock downs would have become unnecessary.

    My experience to date is that those testing positive were the same that didn't remain physically distanced or choose to wear a mask or well it constantly. Of course there are exceptions and in crowded areas staying a part was not as easy.

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    Default Re: Post your Contentious Virus Posts Here

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I was never in a lock down mode. I simply began wearing a mask the first of April 2020 and keeping my distance. I would go to youth sporting events and be the only person attending with a mask. Yes, I got some strange looks. As someone in healthcare, I went into homes and healthcare facilities and always wearing gloves, face mask and plastic sheild. I cannot believe I test negative each Monday, but I have.

    I have now had both the intial and booster Moderna vaccine.


    Had Americans simply followed the CDC guidlines as information evolved or understood the aerosolized nature of COVID-19, many would not have died and shut downs and lock downs would have become unnecessary.

    My experience to date is that those testing positive were the same that didn't remain physically distanced or choose to wear a mask or well it constantly. Of course there are exceptions and in crowded areas staying a part was not as easy.
    We had covid. Me and my wife were very careful, masks, disinfectant, for first 6 months I even kept potentially contaminated surfaces under control to remove possibility of cross contamination with disinfectant.

    My 1.5 years old daughter brought it from kindergarten. Wife is a primary school psychiatrist or whatever you call it in English, so that was deemed "necessary work profile" and had to work as required by our government. I could theoretically stay at home, but as a substantial bread winner in our household, it just wasn't financially feasible, so we needed the kindergarten.

    What I'm trying to say is, it's not so clear cut. Some of us simply had to put ourselves at risk. Perhaps even majority of the infected ones. So you're completely reliant on people around you. I work as a researcher / r&d engineer, I have several exams in fluid mechanics. I understand aerosols very well. The institute I work at did very detailed simulations of spread of aerosols depending on distance, type of mask, materials, etc. Nobody believed us. Several months later university of Vienna in Austria basically confirmed our findings and some people believed it then, but most people still didn't. These are the people you're depending on with your health and potentially even life. A dozen of us have studied years upon years in mechanics, even specialized in fluid dynamics, but we knew less than people who "feel" that's not how it works. It is what it is.

    We were luckily fine, because we're in early 30s and healthy. My daughter was fine as well, luckily. We didn't infect anyone, because I was ready with 2 months worth of food stockpiled home (I prepared this in January already, because I knew the virus will reach Europe sooner or later). My friend wasn't so lucky. His parents infected his grandmother, because they didn't believe in the virus. The grandma is dead, and my friend loved her a lot.

    I just needed to vent a little and I know you didn't mean to accuse people, but I guess I just wanted to say that more people had to risk an infection, because having the financial means to not work for several years is a luxury the vast majority simply can not afford.

  32. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to adhoc For This Useful Post:

    dneal (February 28th, 2021), ethernautrix (February 28th, 2021), fountainpenkid (February 28th, 2021), Ray-VIgo (March 4th, 2021), TSherbs (March 4th, 2021), welch (March 2nd, 2021)

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