Grail brands not grail pens

[Spideysgirl]

I have grail brands. It means I have brands I'd like to have a mid range model from. I dont want students level pens. For example, I'd like to have a nice mid range Montblanc. I've just purchased a mid range Visconti and Pelikan.



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[FredRydr]

I have grail brands. It means I have brands I'd like to have a mid range model from. I dont want students level pens. For example, I'd like to have a nice mid range Montblanc. I've just purchased a mid range Visconti and Pelikan.

For Montblanc, search on "Monte Rosa" in eBay's Pens and Writing Instruments. Figure $75-$100 for a nice one. Standard cautions apply, but I never saw a counterfeit Mont Rosa (though I just sold a very similar Reform). Also, if you find a Swiss Monte Rosa, it's a Dimmler and not Montblanc, but contact me if you find one of those!

[ilikenails]

I have grail brands. It means I have brands I'd like to have a mid range model from. I dont want students level pens. For example, I'd like to have a nice mid range Montblanc. I've just purchased a mid range Visconti and Pelikan.

I don't understand defining the desirability of a pen in terms of where it sits in the range - ie price. For example, a mid-range Montblanc is simply a medium size plastic pen with a decent nib. Which is exactly what, say, Pilot Kakuno is - in fact the Kakuno is likely to be better writer and it's definitely easier to maintain. Not to mention much less prone to breaking - MB's "precious resin" is actually cheap plastic with glass fibres added for shininess, and fibres make the resulting material notoriously brittle.

Otoh, the pens made before MB was taken over in 1977 can be very interesting. And their ink is superb (although they don't make it themselves.)

I suppose my grail brand would be Nakaya. They're the opposite of MB. They're typically urushi over ebonite instead of moulded plastic, the designs are restrained, they don't spend a fortune on marketing, and virtually no one will recognise the brand except serious pen people. In fact, the pens are virtually brandless.

..I'll probably never get one though because I write too much and I concentrate on what I'm writing rather than protecting my pens. The thought of anyone treating a Nakaya the way I treat pens makes me feel ill.

[Kaputnik]

My two Montblancs are both the Noblesse Oblige model from the late 1970s. Lovely pens, one with a fine (or possibly extra fine) nib, the other with a medium. Very slim, the slimmest fountain pens I have, and unlike what people think of as a typical Montblanc. Although I suppose I can't be sure what people think. This is a good model to look for used, but only if you find a slim pen comfortable to hold. I do, some don't. But that's enough Montblanc for me.

If I were to start looking for fountain pens again, I would look for vintage types that I don't have. An older Parker Duofold would be nice, a better example of a Moore than I currently have, some vintage (not modern) Pelikans. I wouldn't say these are "grail" brands, but they are desirable.

[dneal]

I agree with Fred’s Monte Rosa suggestion, but good condition 1980’s 146s with the gray unstriped window are ubiquitous for under $300; which isn’t an absurd price for a piston filler with gold nib and ebonite feed.

[ilikenails]

ebonite feed.

...But is an ebonite feed worth paying for? They don't perform any better than a decent modern plastic one. In fact, greater surface complexity possible with a modern injection moulded feed allows them to perform better than is possible for any practical ebonite feed in many ways. See eg delvecchio's discussion here -

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...-plastic-feed/

There was a time when plastic feeds weren't as good as ebonite, because simple plastic feeds were fitted to save costs. That time is long gone: plastic feeds are now very complex beasts that perform extremely well. In fact the modern pens that put the highest demands on their feeds have plastic ones - Pilot's flex nibs.

[guyy]

ebonite feed.

...But is an ebonite feed worth paying for? They don't perform any better than a decent modern plastic one. In fact, greater surface complexity possible with a modern injection moulded feed allows them to perform better than is possible for any practical ebonite feed in many ways. See eg delvecchio's discussion here -

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...-plastic-feed/

There was a time when plastic feeds weren't as good as ebonite, because simple plastic feeds were fitted to save costs. That time is long gone: plastic feeds are now very complex beasts that perform extremely well. In fact the modern pens that put the highest demands on their feeds have plastic ones - Pilot's flex nibs.

And people replace those plastic plastic Pilot feeds with ebonite feeds because they don’t keep up with the FA nibs.

[dneal]

...But is an ebonite feed worth paying for? They don't perform any better than a decent modern plastic one.

Is an ebonite pen worth paying for? They don't perform any better than a decent modern plastic one either. Some people place value on aesthetics.

And people replace those plastic plastic Pilot feeds with ebonite feeds because they don’t keep up with the FA nibs.

Yup. The FA nib isn't really a flex nib, as anybody who has used a real flex nib knows. A fountain pen works off of capillary action. Ebonite naturally has better capillary action. Vintage feeds often have two ink channels to supply a flex nib.

The only real performance advantage plastic has is because you are able to mold more fins. More fins = more surface area to collect ink pushed out of a pen due air expanding in the ink chamber. Omas' ebonite feed didn't really change (other than the number of ink channels). I've never had a problem with burps or drips. Same for MB's split (ebonite) feed.

Modern plastic feeds regulate ink well too, so "performance" issues are moot. Either they work or they don't, and that's as much design as material.

[FredRydr]

...a better example of a Moore than I currently have...I wouldn't say these are "grail" brands....

Some would disagree. Hard rubber Moores have some of the very best nibs!

[ilikenails]

ebonite feed.

...But is an ebonite feed worth paying for? They don't perform any better than a decent modern plastic one. In fact, greater surface complexity possible with a modern injection moulded feed allows them to perform better than is possible for any practical ebonite feed in many ways. See eg delvecchio's discussion here -

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...-plastic-feed/

There was a time when plastic feeds weren't as good as ebonite, because simple plastic feeds were fitted to save costs. That time is long gone: plastic feeds are now very complex beasts that perform extremely well. In fact the modern pens that put the highest demands on their feeds have plastic ones - Pilot's flex nibs.

And people replace those plastic plastic Pilot feeds with ebonite feeds because they don’t keep up with the FA nibs.

Really? **Which** people??? It's not something that Binder or Mottishaw do as part of their Spencerian conversions. Yes, someone might have done it some time - but that doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.

Also, if you'd read the source and understood the topic, you'd know that creating effective plastic feeds requires extremely expensive tooling. If you do need an unusual feed that doesn't justify tens of thousands of dollars of tool costs, then yes, it would probably be made be from ebonite - you can just have a craftsman in India cut it as a one-off.

[Johnny_S]

The above poster is to be ignored, he has bult a troll reputation and posts only to cause offence to others, I suggest to all that he is added to your Ignore list, click Settings in the top right, and then look for Ignore List on the left and add Ilikenails.

[ilikenails]

A fountain pen works off of capillary action. Ebonite naturally has better capillary action. Vintage feeds often have two ink channels to supply a flex nib.

The only real performance advantage plastic has is because you are able to mold more fins. .

Again, you seem to have a problem reading sources. If you'd read you'd know that what you have written is complete nonsense:

1. Capillary action depends on SURFACE TEXTURE. With modern manufacturing techniques, plastic can be given a texture to match ebonites

2. It also depends on the exact size of channels. With moulding, you produce the same size every time. Ebonite feeds have to be cut and the very fine tools are constantly undergoing a high rate of wear, so very feeds get channels of the ideal size.

...This is what you should have read (or maybe did, but failed to understand):

n an ebonite feed that is made by tooling is NOT possible to machne the same comes and this is why plastic feeds are superior. Do not forget that 60 years ago there were nearly NO air flights therefore air compensation was limited to wheather changes or mountains or skyscrapers.

Quality : ebonite is very abrasive and tools have a very short life. Is easy to understand that to cut the same groove is nearly impossible and tools have to be changed very frequently.Pls consider the size of the tools , usually mm 0.15 . A different groove size means an higher or lower ink flow. Ink flow depends from the width of both channels : ink channel and air channel, but air channel is much more important because is air that determines how much is the ink flow. It is obiouvs that a plastic feed is always perfect because there is not a tool consumption.




What's most hilarious is the source you're disagreeing with using your junk science. It's this guy, posting under his own name -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nancyol.../#d8299911774b
He’s affectionately known as the rock star of pen making among those of us who know and love fine pens. But even if you aren’t a bona fide writing instrument insider, you’ve probably run across Dante Del Vecchio, if not the man, then one of the eighteen patents he’s garnered over his 30-year career. These include inventions for everything from a new-and-improved fountain pen clip to a fountain pen filling system. He also founded the Florence-based Visconti pen company in 1988, taking it to world renown.

[Fermata]

The IP address of Ilikenails has been obtained and a report made to the Police in respect of an offence under the Malicious Communications Act, it is a reminder to all that Persons engaging in Internet trolling are immediately committing an offence under this Act. The report was made following troll comments under the Lounge forum, equally there appears to be continued acts and comments of abuse towards dneal under other posts.

Whilst we may not have active moderation we are still responsible under Law.

[ilikenails]

The above poster is to be ignored, he has bult a troll reputation and posts only to cause offence to others, I suggest to all that he is added to your Ignore list, click Settings in the top right, and then look for Ignore List on the left and add Ilikenails.

Says a guy with 18 posts. None of which seem to show any knowledge about actual pens. Who is outraged that I object to dneal attacking non-Trump admirers with racist and misogynistic language... Sock puppet account, maybe?

Also, how can I "post only to cause offence to others" when I'm the one making posts with actual sources, on the actual subject this forum is dedicated to, and you're just attacking other people without actually even attempting to talk about the subject? This isn't just trolling on your part, it's stupidly obvious, pitifully pathetic trolling. Take a big dose of grow-up pills, yes?

[ilikenails]

The IP address of Ilikenails has been obtained and a report made to the Police in respect of an offence under the Malicious Communications Act, it is a reminder to all that Persons engaging in Internet trolling are immediately committing an offence under this Act.

No, it's not actually illegal to point out that someone is ignorant, not even if you call it "trolling" because you're a bleach drinking hypocrite. However attacking people on the basis of race, nationality and sex, as your little group of nuts have done may well be illegal.

Unfortunately, no, you pompous idiot, you can't get an IP address from a forum post. If you're going to lie, find someone who can explain to how to do it intelligently...

However, you have just committed an actual, unambiguous offence under UK and US criminal law: faking a report to the police **is** harassment, by definition. It takes a real cretin to do this publicly... (And btw, you silly, silly little man - I've taken a screenshot and had friends do the same, so there's no point editing.)

[ilikenails]

Strange times: a group of idiots harass people based on race, nationality and sex. Then they cry when someone points out that one of them is using Idiot Science to argue with definitive statements from the world's greatest living pen designer, attempt to harass someone by claiming to have made a false report to the police - and are stupid enough not to realise that this is a criminal offense...

Well, I suppose if you were smart you wouldn't be a racist, misogynist, bleach drinking nut to begin with...

[Kaputnik]

...a better example of a Moore than I currently have...I wouldn't say these are "grail" brands....

Some would disagree. Hard rubber Moores have some of the very best nibs!

Oh, I agree with you. I have one with a really excellent nib, but an unfortunate tendency to burp ink just when you're thinking that all is well. I've been meaning to get around to dealing with that. I'm just leery of this use of the word "grail" in this context.

I have three other Moores which are good pens, and a bit less temperamental.

[dneal]

Ebonite naturally has better capillary action.

1. Capillary action depends on SURFACE TEXTURE. With modern manufacturing techniques, plastic can be given a texture to match ebonites

From your own link:

Capillarity : ebonite has a "wet" surface that allows easy capillarity. Plstic (ABS usually) need to have a wet tratment otherwise do not works. Any pen dealer knows that a plastic feed needs more time to start properly.

Aside from your lack of reading comprehension, which causes you to be erroneously selective; you "appeal to authority" because you do not understand the ideas yourself.

Your insecurities show you to be emotionally volatile. The internet probably isn't a safe space for you. Maybe try a drum circle?

[azkid]

I suppose I would like to get a Moore, Swan, and Sailor to see what the fuss is about.

I wouldn't necessarily knock the low end Montblanc pens from the 60s. My Montblanc 221 pens have superb nibs and I really like the size and shape. I would expect any of their pens in that style to be just as good.

Frankly I think I would rather keep these than get one of their cigar-shaped cousins (but maybe I am biased because of price).

[guyy]

Really? **Which** people??? It's not something that Binder or Mottishaw do as part of their Spencerian conversions. Yes, someone might have done it some time - but that doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.

Also, if you'd read the source and understood the topic, you'd know that creating effective plastic feeds requires extremely expensive tooling. If you do need an unusual feed that doesn't justify tens of thousands of dollars of tool costs, then yes, it would probably be made be from ebonite - you can just have a craftsman in India cut it as a one-off.

Who? The people who get the ebonite replacement feeds from the Flexible Nib Factory. It’s very easy to swap in. (It’s also reversible). Others modify the stock feed to improve flow by widening the channel.

Again, the reason they modify or swap feeds is because the stock feed doesn’t supply adequate flow to the nib when the tines are flexed.