How do American retailers stay in business?!

[dneal]

I read your post, and was the first to respond. The responses are hardly "weak" arguments. They're facts about a capitalist economy that you seem to disagree with.

Me: An M1000 is a luxury item.
You: This is a silly argument.

That's an example of my earlier point, not to mention your condescending attitude that has gotten this thread where it is. "That's a silly argument" is not just a weak argument, it's no argument at all. It's the logical fallacy of a horse-laugh. Tag Heuer couldn't sell watches, so they raised the prices and increased the marketing. They entered the "luxury market". They sell a bunch of watches with plain old ETA movements for a lot of markup. That's part of what the luxury market is: overpriced things that wealthy people buy. The M1000, as a "flagship" pen, is a luxury market item. How much more gold and plastic is in one compared to an M400? How much more manufacturing challenge is there? They charge what they charge because they can. Don't like it? Don't buy one (or still pay too much at a European retailer under the delusion of getting a bargain).

[TSherbs]

See, if you read the first post, it asks the question, as opposed to implying a rhetorical one. I've dismissed our countered other points made because theyre weak arguments. The only reasonable one I have heard is the customer service aspect in case returns need to be made. Ive responded and quoted almost every single poster who responded, so clearly I am not ignoring anyone...

Of course you haven't.

American retailers have more recently been facing this competition from Europe and Japan in a number of ways, particularly as word has been spread of reliable delivery of goods and reliable products and/or return policy. I, too, have purchased pen products from China, France, England, Japan, and Germany...and I have received every order and without any damage or unforeseen delay in delivery. This has made me more confident about ordering abroad, and the easy translation programs make navigating some websites more facile. I imagine that American retailers recognize the quality of this competition and try to negate it through building brand loyalty, social media presence, and the appearance of a more "personalized" approach to their marketing and sales. I suppose that this works for them, although we are not privy to their internal analyses. When I began I bought from American sellers only (I am in the USA) because they seemed closer to home and thus more reliable over all, especially if I made a mistake of some kind. But once I became more independent and confident, these other marketing approaches had less value to me. Truth be told, I have become saturated with the faces and voices of some retailers and reviewers, and I have intentionally given some business to vendors who do not do this. Now I value shutting up and just packing my purchase in a box without a sticker and getting it in the mail the next day. THE NEXT DAY. I'm not impatient; I just appreciate the no-nonsense, no bullshit approach to simply delivering the product to my door reliably without fanfare.

And notes from people who pack stuff? Save the paper product, for god's sake. Stop putting marketing bullshit in these packages. So, I actually react negatively to marketing material that is nothing in value added to the product, but I see that this is how some retailers are trying to compete in this increasingly competitive global marketplace. We'll see how long it works, and for whom.

[Chuck Naill]

So what??

Only took a few pages, but we’ve arrived at the answer to the original post.

If "so what" is the answer we can finally shut down the forum since for some these discussions matter little and they have no interest at all. For someone to post "so what" the motivation is just to increase their post count. No disrespect intended, just an observation.

An astute observation at that

So what??

Only took a few pages, but we’ve arrived at the answer to the original post.

Actually we didn't. The question was how do they plan on staying in business when european retailers are severely undercutting them on price. "so what" doesnt apply to the question at hand.

There is no question "at hand", other than a rhetorical one. You've spent the majority of the thread arguing against or outright dismissing people's responses, ignoring the most pertinent aspects. So "so what" pretty much does apply at this point. Unfortunately you were given the benefit of the doubt initially. Lesson learned.

And for Chuck, not sure who you're referring to about increasing post count. If it's me, you suck at math. ~600 posts in 6 years. You're halfway there in under a year. So yeah, somebody does seem interested in paying attention to post counts... :/ But more to the point, the "now we can shut down the forum" point is banal. There are plenty of worthwhile threads on the forum. This just isn't one of them.

I don't know who you are, but if you look at my posts, they are in the Esterbrook, repair, and pencil section primarily where my interests lie.

"So what" is not a serious response to any thread. It shows a lack of candor and interest in adding something others can use. Therefore, the only value is increasing one's posting count. If you are the one, then you know what I think.

[dneal]

Chuck, the OP used “so what” as a response to another poster. I quoted that for irony. You quoted me. I still have no idea who you’re talking about. Say what you’re going to say. No need to be obtuse.

p.s.: You’re not posting this in the esterbrook or pencil section.

[NobleSixSeven]

I read your post, and was the first to respond. The responses are hardly "weak" arguments. They're facts about a capitalist economy that you seem to disagree with.

Me: An M1000 is a luxury item.
You: This is a silly argument.

That's an example of my earlier point, not to mention your condescending attitude that has gotten this thread where it is. "That's a silly argument" is not just a weak argument, it's no argument at all. It's the logical fallacy of a horse-laugh. Tag Heuer couldn't sell watches, so they raised the prices and increased the marketing. They entered the "luxury market". They sell a bunch of watches with plain old ETA movements for a lot of markup. That's part of what the luxury market is: overpriced things that wealthy people buy. The M1000, as a "flagship" pen, is a luxury market item. How much more gold and plastic is in one compared to an M400? How much more manufacturing challenge is there? They charge what they charge because they can. Don't like it? Don't buy one (or still pay too much at a European retailer under the delusion of getting a bargain).

LMAO. The question was never if the M1000 is a luxury item or if I could afford one. Rather it was why pay double the cost in the US compared to having it shipped from the EU for half the cost? Contrary to your assertion, I understand capitalism quite well. I like competition and the EU retailers are simply destroying the competition compared to the US, and that will be what leads to larger ticket items being purchased overseas. To put it in terms of your misrepresented analogy:

If TAG charges $2000 for a watch in the US but $1000 in the EU, best believe that people will buy it from overseas and have it shipped here. No one is saying that they are not charging a premium for their brand. The issue is not to discuss if TAG is an overpriced item or not; intrinsic value depends on the purchaser. The issue is why pay 2000 when you can pay 1000? Lastly, I dont know why you keep getting confused about this. The issue is not "Pelikan charging what they can because they can", the issue is discussing why US retailers charge double what EU retailers charge.

See, if you read the first post, it asks the question, as opposed to implying a rhetorical one. I've dismissed our countered other points made because theyre weak arguments. The only reasonable one I have heard is the customer service aspect in case returns need to be made. Ive responded and quoted almost every single poster who responded, so clearly I am not ignoring anyone...

Of course you haven't.

American retailers have more recently been facing this competition from Europe and Japan in a number of ways, particularly as word has been spread of reliable delivery of goods and reliable products and/or return policy. I, too, have purchased pen products from China, France, England, Japan, and Germany...and I have received every order and without any damage or unforeseen delay in delivery. This has made me more confident about ordering abroad, and the easy translation programs make navigating some websites more facile. I imagine that American retailers recognize the quality of this competition and try to negate it through building brand loyalty, social media presence, and the appearance of a more "personalized" approach to their marketing and sales. I suppose that this works for them, although we are not privy to their internal analyses. When I began I bought from American sellers only (I am in the USA) because they seemed closer to home and thus more reliable over all, especially if I made a mistake of some kind. But once I became more independent and confident, these other marketing approaches had less value to me. Truth be told, I have become saturated with the faces and voices of some retailers and reviewers, and I have intentionally given some business to vendors who do not do this. Now I value shutting up and just packing my purchase in a box without a sticker and getting it in the mail the next day. THE NEXT DAY. I'm not impatient; I just appreciate the no-nonsense, no bullshit approach to simply delivering the product to my door reliably without fanfare.

And notes from people who pack stuff? Save the paper product, for god's sake. Stop putting marketing bullshit in these packages. So, I actually react negatively to marketing material that is nothing in value added to the product, but I see that this is how some retailers are trying to compete in this increasingly competitive global marketplace. We'll see how long it works, and for whom.

Agreed.

[dneal]

You keep comparing apples to oranges.

[NobleSixSeven]

You keep comparing apples to oranges.

[dneal]

*sigh*

Exhibit A: European market conditions vs American market conditions. Apples to apples. European sellers avoiding VAT and selling to Americans who also avoid tax: Apples to Oranges.

Oh, and butthurt?

I started my fountain pen hobby as many people here through Goulet Pens, but as I delved deeper into the field, it seems that there is a HUGE markup in both pen and ink sales buying from a North American Retailer compared to a european one...

I think that's where the butthurt began, and you felt the need to start a thread on it. I think you're just more butthurt that not everybody is whining about it sympathetically. Why would we? We already knew you could get things cheaper through other sources.

Next time, help the community by sharing your source of good deals. Post when someone is having a sale. Share coupon codes. Help people who are looking for a certain pen. Bitching and calling out specific vendors (which is exactly what your OP is, your protests notwithstanding), is negative and does no one any good.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[TSherbs]

I don't know who you are, but if you look at my posts, they are in the Esterbrook, repair, and pencil section primarily where my interests lie.

Don't worry about it. No need to defend yourself.

I also want to add that there is a bit of nationalism still at play in much purchasing for many people. We feel pride in "buying USA," even when the product is manufactured in another country. This helps US retailers to some degree, and they can partly rely on this sentiment and even play it up for dollars.

It's clear even that some of the made-in-China-it-must-be-an-illegal-ripoff sentiment has racist roots. Why some people buy American even when it is more expensive is the result of a complicated rational and emotional algorithm.

[NobleSixSeven]

Lol me buying a TWSBi is hardly cause for butthurt. Considering every subsequent pen has been European bought, I’m definitely happy about it hahah. American seller selling a pen vs a European seller selling a Pelikan is apples to apples.

Thus endeth the correction to your faulty logic

[dneal]

lol

[Chuck Naill]

I don't know who you are, but if you look at my posts, they are in the Esterbrook, repair, and pencil section primarily where my interests lie.

Don't worry about it. No need to defend yourself.

I also want to add that there is a bit of nationalism still at play in much purchasing for many people. We feel pride in "buying USA," even when the product is manufactured in another country. This helps US retailers to some degree, and they can partly rely on this sentiment and even play it up for dollars.

It's clear even that some of the made-in-China-it-must-be-an-illegal-ripoff sentiment has racist roots. Why some people buy American even when it is more expensive is the result of a complicated rational and emotional algorithm.

I appreciate the Chinese craftspeople. I have a couple hand made snakewood fiddle bows and a Wing Sung 601 bought direct. If the pandemic has taught me anything, it is that we are all so connected and beautifully connected. Plus, with a business background and academic training, economies of scale are not lost on me.

BTW. the ignore function works beautifully. Perhaps the troll will get the message...LOL

[sgphoto]

There are a few American retailers I do business with for various pen products and these are during the "shutdown" but still managed to ship my order.

Vanness Pens - great service, good prices on KWY Iron Gall inks and Clairefountain paper. I placed an order on Saturday-got it Tuesday with free shipping. Gives discounts with purchases. Good people.

Pendemonium - Fair prices, excellent people, great service, honest, and ship quickly.

Fountain Pen Revolution - bought a Guider ebonite with Schmidt nib. Received it in four days. Nice thank you from Kevin via email as I'm a repeat customer. Minimal, but secure packaging.

So there are good people who can take orders and ship quickly. These are the American retailers I'll continue to support. Why? Good prices, excellent service.

They want my business.

[TSherbs]

I appreciate the Chinese craftspeople. I have a couple hand made snakewood fiddle bows and a Wing Sung 601 bought direct. If the pandemic has taught me anything, it is that we are all so connected and beautifully connected. Plus, with a business background and academic training, economies of scale are not lost on me.

And unfortunately, in times of crisis, or increased tension, or increased perceived tension, race-blaming and scapegoating and prejudice are often heightened. Resentments enflame. There was a time not that long ago when some considered it an outrage that the White House might serve something called "french fries." Silly humanity.

We are indeed one world, and there is no turning that back. Well, unless we run out of fossil fuel. That might set things back a bit.

[NobleSixSeven]

You mean freedom fries?

[TSherbs]

You mean freedom fries?

Thems the ones!

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

[welch]

So I started my fountain pen hobby as many people here through Goulet Pens, but as I delved deeper into the field, it seems that there is a HUGE markup in both pen and ink sales buying from a North American Retailer compared to a european one:
FOR EXAMPLE:
A Pelikan M1000 is 700-800 USD PLUS TAX ~ totals 800-900 USD
A Pelikan M1000 at Appelboom is 530 USD NO TAX. At CultPens it is 404 USD NO TAX.

Thats almost double the price!!

Same thing with inks:
Diamine Ancient Copper 50mL is $15 PLUS TAX at Goulet, JetPens, Goldspot, etc... but it is 7 bucks at La Couronne du Comte and CultPens..


If you take the price of European retailers as the norm, then US retailers pricing is absolutely exorbitant.
How is the pricing justified?

Reviving the original bit of the post, the pricing of US retailers for imported pen products is set by the US affiliate / marketer. Stores must sell products from, say, Pilot USA, rather than through an unofficial channel in Japan. Ten years ago, Pilot released their Iroshizuku inks, the first luxury inks. Art Brown's pen shop sold Iroshizuku Asa-Gao for about $30 a bottle, while some on-line vendors had it for about $21. I asked Marilyn Brown about it, and, yes, one of the benefits of having actual physical stores was that you could walk in and talk with someone like Warren and Marilyn Brown, who had been working in the family store since the late '30s. Marilyn said that they were selling at the price Pilot USA had set, while on-line vendor X had people buying product in Japan and shipping it to a warehouse in the US.

About a month later, Pilot USA announced that the price would be $30 list and that their vendors could discount to $28 but no lower. Any vendor that bought from anyone other than Pilot USA, or who tried to discount less than $28, could no longer have any Pilot product. There were squeals on FPN, but Pilot Japan and Pilot USA enforced the rule. As Marilyn explained, "Otherwise, Pilot will no longer have a distributor in the US".

My guess is that Pelikan's distributor has set a price below which the M1000 cannot be sold. Same with other products. If enough Pelikan product, for instance, is sold by a vendor in Germany that it hurts Pelikan's US distributor, then Pelikan will probably clobber those German vendors.

(Incidentally, I mostly agree with a comment that TSherbs made somewhere else: don't be taken in by some of the marketing fluff from the Goulets. They don't know much, even though they pretend to be experts. I have their emails sent to spam. You will learn quickly. Instead, learn from places like Richard Binder's site. Pay attention to Ron Zorn's comments in the repairs section. If you all live in a town that has a pen club, go to meetings and ask and listen. Go to pen shows and absorb. I have found that even the most accomplished people in pen-dom, like Richard and Ron are approachable. And funny.)

[NobleSixSeven]

So I started my fountain pen hobby as many people here through Goulet Pens, but as I delved deeper into the field, it seems that there is a HUGE markup in both pen and ink sales buying from a North American Retailer compared to a european one:
FOR EXAMPLE:
A Pelikan M1000 is 700-800 USD PLUS TAX ~ totals 800-900 USD
A Pelikan M1000 at Appelboom is 530 USD NO TAX. At CultPens it is 404 USD NO TAX.

Thats almost double the price!!

Same thing with inks:
Diamine Ancient Copper 50mL is $15 PLUS TAX at Goulet, JetPens, Goldspot, etc... but it is 7 bucks at La Couronne du Comte and CultPens..


If you take the price of European retailers as the norm, then US retailers pricing is absolutely exorbitant.
How is the pricing justified?

Reviving the original bit of the post, the pricing of US retailers for imported pen products is set by the US affiliate / marketer. Stores must sell products from, say, Pilot USA, rather than through an unofficial channel in Japan. Ten years ago, Pilot released their Iroshizuku inks, the first luxury inks. Art Brown's pen shop sold Iroshizuku Asa-Gao for about $30 a bottle, while some on-line vendors had it for about $21. I asked Marilyn Brown about it, and, yes, one of the benefits of having actual physical stores was that you could walk in and talk with someone like Warren and Marilyn Brown, who had been working in the family store since the late '30s. Marilyn said that they were selling at the price Pilot USA had set, while on-line vendor X had people buying product in Japan and shipping it to a warehouse in the US.

About a month later, Pilot USA announced that the price would be $30 list and that their vendors could discount to $28 but no lower. Any vendor that bought from anyone other than Pilot USA, or who tried to discount less than $28, could no longer have any Pilot product. There were squeals on FPN, but Pilot Japan and Pilot USA enforced the rule. As Marilyn explained, "Otherwise, Pilot will no longer have a distributor in the US".

My guess is that Pelikan's distributor has set a price below which the M1000 cannot be sold. Same with other products. If enough Pelikan product, for instance, is sold by a vendor in Germany that it hurts Pelikan's US distributor, then Pelikan will probably clobber those German vendors.

(Incidentally, I mostly agree with a comment that TSherbs made somewhere else: don't be taken in by some of the marketing fluff from the Goulets. They don't know much, even though they pretend to be experts. I have their emails sent to spam. You will learn quickly. Instead, learn from places like Richard Binder's site. Pay attention to Ron Zorn's comments in the repairs section. If you all live in a town that has a pen club, go to meetings and ask and listen. Go to pen shows and absorb. I have found that even the most accomplished people in pen-dom, like Richard and Ron are approachable. And funny.)

Thank you for actually answering the question asked! It does seem as the Pelikan distributor, ChartPak, does set the MSRP for its US vendors after taking its cut. And I agree about the Goulet comment. If one pays attention to their Youtube videos, its basically an advertising tool (similar to native ads) to get you to buy stuff from them. Not gonna hate on their hustle since they do put a lot of work into it, but it should be recognized as such.

[Linger]

Is this a US forum or an international forum?

[An old bloke]

Is this a US forum or an international forum?

The last I looked, which was a few hours ago, it was (is) 'international'.