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Thread: Rioting over police killing

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    Default Rioting over police killing

    I consider myself liberal. But I feel like im being rational about whats happening. A friend said im conservative becauseof my view on this issue.( Caveat: no being human deserves to die in the manner that Mr Floyd did. I believe he did nothing wrong.) Although I think these professors are wrongfully insinuating that ALL cops are bad. There are more good cops out there who aren't manhandling and killing innocent men of color. They abide by the enforce the laws and dont committ these types of offenses.

    I must be missing the liberal view on this.


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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Here's the view of someone of Indian descent raised in Virginia. It's pretty confronting but it helped me understand it a bit more.

    https://eand.co/its-the-twenty-first...t-5ea49ed03ed5

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to rocl For This Useful Post:

    TSherbs (June 7th, 2020)

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Prejudice is part of the human condition. It’s in-group/out-group psychology. Sometimes that prejudice is based on race, and we give it a specific name; but it’s still just prejudice. Show me the random grouping of humans you’ve categorized and I’ll find another one they’re prejudiced against (and one that’s prejudiced against them). Humans can be horrible creatures. Mark Twain wrote: “ All that I care to know is that a man is a human being—that is enough for me; he can't be any worse.” Humans are also prone to bigotry - “obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices”.

    Combine that with our penchant for sweeping generalizations, and we end up with each bigoted group shouting or demonstrating their “truth”. The article rocl posted is actually a fair example. The author clearly holds a bigoted opinion of “white people”, based on his life experience. Ironically, he correctly notes that it is it’s own form of racism, and that non-whites can be racist as well; but then he continues with his instructions and admonitions to “white people”.

    A synonym for “bigotry” is “small-mindedness”. That’s more to the crux of the problem. Small-minded individuals assigning characteristics to all members of some grouping of humans. Caveating the bigotry with “well, obviously not all” is disingenuous. “Cops are out there killing black people!” Really, all cops? “Well, obviously not all...” is how the conversation goes. But then what does the first statement mean? What is the effect if you get a multitude to buy into it?

    There are certainly people who are intentionally capitalizing on the rhetoric. Society appears to me to be more susceptible to “tribal” narratives.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by rocl View Post
    Here's the view of someone of Indian descent raised in Virginia. It's pretty confronting but it helped me understand it a bit more.

    https://eand.co/its-the-twenty-first...t-5ea49ed03ed5
    This is powerful. I am working on truly hearing it. Thank you for sharing it.

    -T

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Here is an interesting mega-study (20 million children and their parents) of income-gap disparities over generations in America broken down by race, gender, and several other variables, even one's neighborhood. It is complicated and long. Read the abstract and the introduction, then skip to page 57 where the tables and graphs begin (and go on for dozens of pages). Very enlightening. The persistence of unequal access to economic improvement is a complex phenomenon, and this study elucidates several patterns (and some surprises to me). http://http://www.equality-of-opport...race_paper.pdf

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    I have noticed that Forums that normally do not give a damn about what is being said are closing Topics that are anything to do with George Floyd, anything at all, no discussion on riots or demonstrations.

    I even saw one threadstarter on FPN that said I am using a black pen with black ink and being mindfull. It lasted 5 minutes until a pig of an Australian member complained that it was political.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Here is an interesting mega-study (20 million children and their parents) of income-gap disparities over generations in America broken down by race, gender, and several other variables, even one's neighborhood. It is complicated and long. Read the abstract and the introduction, then skip to page 57 where the tables and graphs begin (and go on for dozens of pages). Very enlightening. The persistence of unequal access to economic improvement is a complex phenomenon, and this study elucidates several patterns (and some surprises to me). http://http://www.equality-of-opport...race_paper.pdf
    Interesting.

    The modern conservative opinion is that Black Americans find themselves in their current economic condition due to liberal policies that destroyed the nuclear family, etc... While there is some validity, it’s also a very narrow argument attributing a result to a single cause.

    A different argument (that I can’t seem to find now) was a paper looking at the economic impact of the civil rights movement and civil rights act. The summary is: Ethnic groups evolve economically as they assimilate in a new society. Black economic development was disrupted due to the civil rights movement and act of the 60’s.

    “White” had little meaning in early America, where divisions were focused on nationality and culture instead of race. The English were at the top of the societal hierarchy. The Irish were used as slaves *cough* indentured servants *cough* before the African slave trade. Italians were not considered white in the eyes of the law. Germans, Swedes, French, etc... kept themselves in enclaves within cities, or established their own societies across the country. There are plenty of maps showing European migration. Germans in the Midwest, Scandinavians in the North, etc...

    As each culture developed their somewhat isolated economic region, business developed and many moved into a middle and upper class. We go from “Irish need not apply” to the wealth of the Kennedy’s (the likely illegal source of that wealth is a discussion for another time...). We see this in Asian immigration in more modern times and today. We still have “Chinatowns”, “Little Italy”, and the like; but they’re kept for nostalgia rather than enforced (internally or externally).

    The black community developed a rich economic and cultural society post civil-war. It was enforced externally through segregation and racist laws. When the government mandated the lifting of these restrictions, blacks no longer patronized black businesses. The black grocer, clothes-seller, theater, etc... were eschewed for the white businesses they were previously forbidden from patronizing. This led to the decline of black businesses and retarded the economic evolution other societal groups went through. It destroyed the developing black middle and upper classes. Now we can begin to consider the effect of Johnson’s welfare policies, which exacerbated black economic develop rather than helped it. We solved one problem by creating another.
    Last edited by dneal; June 8th, 2020 at 06:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    dneal, you quoted my post but I can't see where you refer to anything in the study I posted or its findings. This is a report that looks at the pattern of income earnings from one generation to the next across all percentiles of the wealth spectrum in America by race and gender. What was most surprising to me was that black women did as well as white women at nearly every percentile in terms of comparisons with their parents' level of income. Black men performed much more poorly than white men and suffered in several categories. Interestingly, both races did just as well with only a single parent in the household. But when a certain critical percentage (not estimated) of neighborhood fathers were absent, and if the neighborhood suffered racial tensions, then the young black men suffered problems much worse than their white counterparts (incarceration is much higher, unemployment is higher, education is lower, and marriage is lower). The black women suffered no statistical decline, just the men. This report suggests that the generational decline in the ability of blacks to keep pace with their parent(s) income level is a product of what certain social/racial traumas do to black men and not to (with nearly no effect on) black women. The young men become wounded, tense, angry, and adrift without adequate neighborhood caring adult male figures (my words).

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    And interestingly, the children of Asian immigrants outperform all other groups racial groups in comparison to their parents' status (and at all levels of income).

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    dneal, you quoted my post but I can't see where you refer to anything in the study I posted or its findings.
    I thought it was clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal
    Interesting
    Not everything has to be a disagreement, if that’s what you were looking for. I attended an HBCU. The “different argument” I was referencing was from a classmate. I thought it was also interesting (enough so that I have remembered it after all these years), and related to the general context of your link.
    Last edited by dneal; June 9th, 2020 at 04:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    I thought it was clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal
    Interesting
    Not everything has to be a disagreement, if that’s what you were looking for.
    no, not at all

    I meant a specific reaction beyond "interesting" to any of the study's findings. You were indeed as "clear" as the single word "interesting" can be about a 100-page research report. I can't even tell if the word "interesting" means that any of the findings are a surprise to you or that you even care about the gap that is driven almost entirely by male functional failures...or not.

    I am now also reading The Beast Side, by D. Watkins. Very different kind of book: a collection of personal essays (threaded into chapters) about growing up and living in the east side of Baltimore. His writing is sharp and his commentary is incisive, and reflective of the results that this study showed: so much of our problem is a specific male dysfunction in reaction to the history of American systemic racism, police harassment, and deprivation in poor black communities. It's the black male that is the canary in the coal mine.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    I thought it was clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal
    Interesting
    Not everything has to be a disagreement, if that’s what you were looking for.
    no, not at all

    I meant a specific reaction beyond "interesting" to any of the study's findings. You were indeed as "clear" as the single word "interesting" can be about a 100-page research report. I can't even tell if the word "interesting" means that any of the findings are a surprise to you or that you even care about the gap that is driven almost entirely by male functional failures...or not.

    I am now also reading The Beast Side, by D. Watkins. Very different kind of book: a collection of personal essays (threaded into chapters) about growing up and living in the east side of Baltimore. His writing is sharp and his commentary is incisive, and reflective of the results that this study showed: so much of our problem is a specific male dysfunction in reaction to the history of American systemic racism, police harassment, and deprivation in poor black communities. It's the black male that is the canary in the coal mine.
    I think the study looks at too small of a sample (children born between 1978-1983), in too short of a time period (1989-2015) to be really indicative of anything. It barely covers one generation, ignores decades of preceding societal context, and lumps ethnicities into groups so large as to be meaningless.

    Take “Asians” for example. Is there a difference between the intergenerational conditions of Chinese immigrants from the late 1800’s until now, compared to Vietnamese immigrants who arrived in the 60’s-80’s? What about Japanese-Americans whose parents and grandparents had livelihoods taken when they were interred into camps and whose property and businesses weren’t returned when the war was over? Are there differences in culture and experience between even the 3 groups I listed? Or is it sufficient to lump them all together and come to a conclusion?

    My sharing of a friend’s paper on Black economic development post civil-rights era was an example of one of the many things the linked study missed.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    I appreciate your responding, but I find your response to be sweepingly dismissive without basis.

    The study looked at 20 million children. That's hardly a "too small sample." (Do you know of a research study that has ever looked at more? I do not.) And it was not attempting to be a look into the past. It wanted to look at "success" parameters as recent as they could. It was not an attempt to look at America in 1930. It did not draw a conclusion from or about 1930, either. (Your friend's paper was not a research piece. Or at least you did not describe it as one, nor provide it here.) That you consider it not "really indicative of anything" seems wildly dismissive. It is exactly "indicative" of the findings in the abstract and the "Introduction". Perhaps you do not wish to discuss them, which is fine. I'd just rather you say so than otherwise so facilely dismiss the research.

    Again, the thesis is that from this study of 20 million persons over a 30-year span, the researchers are documenting what appears to be a crisis of failure among black males in current (as recent as they could get these stats at the time) America. Black male performance statistics in marriage, employment, incarceration, and income earning put them the lowest (except sometimes Native-Americans underperformed even them) in ability to approach or exceed the income level of their parents. In other words, over the last 30+ years, this is what these researchers say they find to be the case from a sample size of 20 million persons. It also suggested some interesting correlations about neighborhoods and presence of male adults in the neighborhoods. I believe that the precise focus of the decades and the huge number of data points and the dozens of graphs showing data in relation to each other make this a very powerful set of information. Do you think that this black male failure crisis is not actually happening? Do you dispute the statistics or indications?

    If you mean to turn this to a discussion of political essays or blog posts, or opinion columns, etc, I don't get into backandforth over those.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    I think the study is interesting. I don’t know what to make of it just yet, but I don’t think it’s an “intergenerational” look except in the loosest use of the term.

    “Isn’t really indicative of anything” is in the context of race and “intergenerational”. Don’t be pedantic, of course it’s indicative of something. I don’t think it’s what they suggest though - which is intergenerational economic opportunity when it only covers one generation. Also, like I said and you ignore; lumping ethnic groups into such broad categories is either sloppy or disingenuous. The economist Thomas Sowell compared blacks who were descendants of slaves with 2nd generation blacks from the West Indies, for example; and found much more economic mobility in the latter group.

    I’m also not sure what you mean by your last sentence, since this is the politics forum. I have not linked anything. That would be you and rocl. I’ll also point out that each of your links has little to do with the OP, which is a question of generalizing police behavior. “Manhandling people of color” is an example, not the thesis.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    London is expecting some serious trouble on Saturday with statues of many being the subject of the anger of the mob including those of Queen Victoria, Churchill and even the founder of Guys Hospital, Thomas Guy, a man born in 1644 and a bookseller in London, he invested in the stock market, including a company that traded slaves, he used the profits from his investments to build a 400 bed hospital, Guys Hospital.

    The police say that they will conduct a robust response if needed.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    London is expecting some serious trouble on Saturday with statues of many being the subject of the anger of the mob including those of Queen Victoria, Churchill and even the founder of Guys Hospital, Thomas Guy, a man born in 1644 and a bookseller in London, he invested in the stock market, including a company that traded slaves, he used the profits from his investments to build a 400 bed hospital, Guys Hospital.

    The police say that they will conduct a robust response if needed.
    Oh dear. We'll be watching from across the pond....

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    I think the worship at the altar of criminality, thuggery and sexual infidelity certainly contributes to the black mans plight. They actively engage in the wholesale of immorality through their "hymnals". It's quite ironic too, in a community so starved for male leadership, they deify these bonafide criminals.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by HitBoi View Post
    I think the worship at the altar of criminality, thuggery and sexual infidelity certainly contributes to the black mans plight. They actively engage in the wholesale of immorality through their "hymnals". It's quite ironic too, in a community so starved for male leadership, they deify these bonafide criminals.
    These attributes are not confined to nor concentrated in persons of darker skin. Just look around yourself with more open and less prejudiced eyes. These attributes have scourged multiple cultures in humanity for all of its history. Check your bias, boi.

    Your post here strikes me more as a white reaction to rap video culture. You should know, for example, that African-American church culture is mostly conservative and precisely opposite of what you describe here.

    You might look at, and acknowledge, the overwhelmingly white male consumption of both violent RPGs and pornography, both of which glorify killing, crime, and lasciviousness (and infidelity). They just tend to leave out the gang members, gold chains, and club dancers.

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    Default Re: Rioting over police killing

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    And interestingly, the children of Asian immigrants outperform all other groups racial groups in comparison to their parents' status (and at all levels of income).
    There is nothing surprising here. Asians have always been hardworking and responsible people.

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