Rabbit holes

[TSherbs]

Actually, I am suggesting that more are like me than the image of the buyer the OP seeks to project within the market for a pen.

"More"

ok

Does this mean that these "more" people feel NO stress of choice or SOME stress of choice? Is your position that the burden of choice is "minor" or "negligible" or "non-existent"? I am asking these things so that you will either use qualifying language or not, more openly. Then I will at least know what kind of position I am responding to.

[kazoolaw]

TS-
And what unit of measurement does one use to gauge the change in a happiness state? Giggles?

But seriously folks.... What objective unit does one use to measure a subjective condition? Always willing to learn.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

A typical approach is to use a Happiness index. In one version (as an example) the Index is measured using a battery of parameters like Housing, Income, Work, Community, Social Engagement, Education, Environment, Health, Life Satisfaction, Safety and Work-life balance. These can all be quantified via self-reported values on a Likert-like scale. These kinds of scales are commonly seen, e.g.

My income meets my needs. (choose one of the following)

1. Strongly disagree
2. disagree
3. neither agree nor disagree
4. agree
5. strongly agree

With skilful wording and an appropriate selection of parameters it is possible to get a pretty accurate idea of happiness levels.

[Jon Szanto]

What objective unit does one use to measure a subjective condition?

A soupçon.

But don't quote me on that. I hate it when people quote me!

[Chuck Naill]

Actually, I am suggesting that more are like me than the image of the buyer the OP seeks to project within the market for a pen.

"More"

ok

Does this mean that these "more" people feel NO stress of choice or SOME stress of choice? Is your position that the burden of choice is "minor" or "negligible" or "non-existent"? I am asking these things so that you will either use qualifying language or not, more openly. Then I will at least know what kind of position I am responding to.

"More" means like me, which I said. I feel no stress at all when it comes to fountain pen acquisitions. I enjoy doing the research, exploring options, asking questions on this forum, and discovering new information. One reason there is no or little stress is because I don't have to own a fountain pen. Since there are many products and services we must have, it seems ironic that stress could exist in a hobby for which we say we enjoy.

Overall, I am not bothered by having many options as a consumer. Given the success of Amazon, I feel most consumers are like me. They like having a wide array of products from which to choose and choose wisely based on others experiences.

The burden of choice exists, but must be qualified in context. Choosing a fountain pen is relatively stress free compared to the choice of having chemotherapy or a surgical procedure. One is minor and the other highly stressful, but not because of a wide range of options, but because two exist.

Lastly, stress might mean different things for different people. A bit of tension is good and causes us to act rather than not when action is needed.

[TSherbs]

@Chuck

I never suggested that there were not stress-free shoppers. Nor am I interested in what percent of them exist.

I have only been arguing for the existence of the stress of choice and the social cost of choice, whether individual X or Y feels it or not. Others do (individuals Y and Z) and this has been written about.

I have no idea if "more" people are stress-free or not, except that people tend to fall into the belly of the Bell Curve somewhere toward the middle. Again, I think that economic class (security and amount of disposable income) would be a large influencing factor. You might examine whether that is relevant for you. It is for me. I am a near-retirement parent still paying a mortgage and college debt. Every decision I make has consequences on others, me, and my future.

Lastly, that consumers "like" and use a service like Amazon does not mean that its choices are stress-free. It just means, all things considered in balance, the service is worth the stress (that the benefits outweigh the costs and stress). For example, and in analogy, most of us adults couple up with a partner, but the relationships are not stress-free. The "success" of marriage as an institution says nothing about whether there is stress in it or not. (and I am not being cheeky here, I am just trying to illustrate my point about your Amazon reasoning).

[TSherbs]

TS-
And what unit of measurement does one use to gauge the change in a happiness state? Giggles?

But seriously folks.... What objective unit does one use to measure a subjective condition? Always willing to learn.

cf EOC's post above

"Happiness" is usually "measured" (Assessed? Quantified? Described?) by using correlated conditions that are more easily and objectively measured. But also, individuals are surveyed about their own feelings. "Happiness" has been assessed many times even though it is not an objective material unit itself. There are also stress responses in the body that can be objectively measured. And with facial recognition technology now, programs can be written to recognize happiness facial movements. All of this is likely reliant upon a matrix of correlated data about objective measurable conditions and self-reported states of feeling (happiness, sadness, stress, relaxation, etc.).

[kazoolaw]

A typical approach is to use a Happiness index. In one version (as an example) the Index is measured using a battery of parameters like Housing, Income, Work, Community, Social Engagement, Education, Environment, Health, Life Satisfaction, Safety and Work-life balance. These can all be quantified via self-reported values on a Likert-like scale. These kinds of scales are commonly seen, e.g.

My income meets my needs. (choose one of the following)

1. Strongly disagree
2. disagree
3. neither agree nor disagree
4. agree
5. strongly agree

With skilful wording and an appropriate selection of parameters it is possible to get a pretty accurate idea of happiness levels.

Can we agree that self reporting is subjective, not an objective measurement?

One can measure the temperature, or speed of an object. Define "strongly" as used in your post. At which point does disagreement turns into strong disagreement?

[kazoolaw]

What objective unit does one use to measure a subjective condition?

A soupçon.

But don't quote me on that. I hate it when people quote me!

I should think that it's nearer to a smidgen. Though some have been known to strongly disagree.

[catbert]

worry_lines either or.jpg

[penwash]

A typical approach is to use a Happiness index. In one version (as an example) the Index is measured using a battery of parameters like Housing, Income, Work, Community, Social Engagement, Education, Environment, Health, Life Satisfaction, Safety and Work-life balance. These can all be quantified via self-reported values on a Likert-like scale. These kinds of scales are commonly seen, e.g.

My income meets my needs. (choose one of the following)

1. Strongly disagree
2. disagree
3. neither agree nor disagree
4. agree
5. strongly agree

With skilful wording and an appropriate selection of parameters it is possible to get a pretty accurate idea of happiness levels.

Can we agree that self reporting is subjective, not an objective measurement?

One can measure the temperature, or speed of an object. Define "strongly" as used in your post. At which point does disagreement turns into strong disagreement?

First of all, the question is inherently subjective. And by subjective, I mean that the answer will be based on personal knowledge and experience which will be different from person to person.

Secondly, we are not doing numerical measurement, such as temperature, speed, etc. Rather, we are gathering what statisticians call "Categorical Data" which the end goal is typically the percentage or ratio taken from a particular sampling of answers.

So the adjective "strong" helps the study to categorize the sample of answers in more granularity (this may help the research, sometimes it doesn't, depends on the end goal of the research).

And here's how to interpret "strong" in this particular case:

"Strongly agree" could mean that my income is greater than my needs by a large margin. Interestingly, this doesn't tell us whether the income is truly large or the need is truly small.

"Agree" could mean that I don't foresee having difficulty to meet my needs using my income. But if something catastrophic happens, that may change.

"Neither agree nor disagree" means that my situation makes my income sometimes can meet my needs, but sometimes it doesn't.

(Derive the meaning of the other two options based on the above, just in the opposite direction).

But, what if the next person interpret the word "strong" differently?

That could be part of the study to see (for example) whether there is any correlation between the type of interpretations and in what area do the people live, or age group, or many other different factors.

Ain't statistics fun?

[Chuck Naill]

@Chuck

I never suggested that there were not stress-free shoppers. Nor am I interested in what percent of them exist.

I have only been arguing for the existence of the stress of choice and the social cost of choice, whether individual X or Y feels it or not. Others do (individuals Y and Z) and this has been written about.

I have no idea if "more" people are stress-free or not, except that people tend to fall into the belly of the Bell Curve somewhere toward the middle. Again, I think that economic class (security and amount of disposable income) would be a large influencing factor. You might examine whether that is relevant for you. It is for me. I am a near-retirement parent still paying a mortgage and college debt. Every decision I make has consequences on others, me, and my future.

Lastly, that consumers "like" and use a service like Amazon does not mean that its choices are stress-free. It just means, all things considered in balance, the service is worth the stress (that the benefits outweigh the costs and stress). For example, and in analogy, most of us adults couple up with a partner, but the relationships are not stress-free. The "success" of marriage as an institution says nothing about whether there is stress in it or not. (and I am not being cheeky here, I am just trying to illustrate my point about your Amazon reasoning).

You've confused me throughout this discussion by introducing children, packaging waste, and your distain for marketing. I do not see the world as you do is my only explanation. I love marketing and trying to understand what others want. I see marketing and sales differently. I see it as companies attempting to understand. So now you say you've just tried to say that "stress exists". Okay, stress exists. I agree. Joy exists also. Happiness exists. Satisfaction exists. Humans are beautifully complicated.

I also recycle.

Like you, I am near retirement. The land and house have been paid off a decade ago and the children never took out a student loan. I've been "f-ing" frugal and tried to stay out of debt. My Tahoe has 276k miles. I don't want or need a $500 pen. The $8 Esterbrook or the $90 '42 Parker works just fine.

The things I get stressed about are not consumables. My stress is different because I am concerned about the world my grand and great children will live. I am concerned about my own lack of knowledge in trying to be a better person, one who is kind and respectful. This is why I read. That I would get concerned overly about an FP is laughable.

[TSherbs]

That I would get concerned overly about an FP is laughable.

That makes your position clear.

[TSherbs]

Measurable, empirical data sets all have their elements of subjectivity. Correlations, although more "subjective," can be statistically strong or weak. Let's not dismiss from "valid" all forms of research except the most rigorously empirical and objective. Again, there is a matrix of data sets that have correlations to self-reported states of "stress" and/or "happiness" that don't get much dispute in the professional world: health, income security, food security, personal safety, income level, employment security, environmental comfort, relational value (family, friends, partners) to name some off the top of my head. Having these does not *guarantee* happiness, but generally speaking, having them correlates with increased self-reported levels of happiness when studied broadly. An *individual* can be "happy" without a single one of these factors, but that, I will speculate, is far less common than having some number of them. We might disagree with some of these items, or want to include others (belief in a God?), but broadly speaking we should at least acknowledge the strength of correlation enough to validate social research on the topic. And not dismiss it for the lack of measurability of "happiness." Happiness is not what is actually being *measured.* It is being deduced from other measurements and questions.

[Chuck Naill]

That's a very long, incoherent paragraph. It does not communicate well. Try again.

[TSherbs]

That's a very long, incoherent paragraph. It does not communicate well. Try again.

It wasn't written to you. My conversation with you on this topic is over.

[Chuck Naill]

That's a very long, incoherent paragraph. It does not communicate well. Try again.

It wasn't written to you. My conversation with you on this topic is over.

So, when you are not successful having an objective conversation that does not line up with how you think you decide to run away? That's really sad and especially for someone in education.

[TSherbs]

Here, for those interested, is a brief summary to some of the methods of "measuring happiness." I am not a researcher nor a statistitian, and I have not vetted all these links. But I did a quick search and thought I'd post it for anyone inclined to read further.

happiness research methods

[TSherbs]

And here is a single paper (without all the data and graphs) on the correlation between age and "happiness" in a set of 500,000 Americans and Europeans. These things are "measured" is my point. (Turns out, being between 40-50 for both genders and for America and Europe is a bummer, generally speaking. This is when the bulk of western humanity is at its most unhappy).

happiness by age in America and Europe

But back to pens and choices.

I like choices, except when there are too many. Then I feel like I am being preyed upon and the world is engaged in a massive effort to produce crap and throw it into the landfill. And this causes stress in me.

[Chuck Naill]

I like choices without qualifications.