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Thread: Rabbit holes

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    You're the guy who's stressed out trying to be validated, assailed by recommendations, and in fear of those evil marketing executives.
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; July 27th, 2020 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Please don't project. This was only a topic for discussion, not a personal attack on anyone, nor a reflection on my own approach to life.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; July 27th, 2020 at 03:21 PM.
    The thing is, we're all pretty on edge at the moment. It would be great if people could be considerate of others in these matters. Not much else will change the situation beyond that. - Jon Szanto

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto

    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    You're the guy who's stressed out trying to be validated, assailed by recommendations, and in fear of those evil marketing executives.
    That's both unkind and incorrect. Now you're just being an arse.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Please don't project. This was only a topic for discussion, not a personal attack on anyone, nor a reflection on my own approach to life.
    I mean no harm against you personally. As I said a few pages back, I do not experience stress when it comes to decision making unless it's life or death circumstances. I'm using your words, I do not feel marketing forces people to do things that don't want to do. I do not feel assailed by members when asked for recommendations. I have no sense of wanting or needing to be validated. These are concepts you've personally mentioned. It is not me projecting onto you something that I made up.

    It is confusing why you stated the thread. I realize some end up with collections of FP's in the hundreds. Some have dozens of inks. Some spend thousands on a pen. This is as true for other items where people collect. This indicates to me that not everyone is the same. What would cause one person to have 100 pens and another less than 10? I don't claim to know, but it does show how people are different. Not everyone falls down a rabbit hole.

    After thinking about the topic, I believe the answer to why some have stress and others don't is more complex than just making decisions. Why some love many options and don't think marketing as a negative while some do is also very interesting.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    So many threads end badly on FPG.

    Decent and good people, who I am sure would be enjoyable company in the real world, allow themselves to be the aggressors. We have seen this on here, including a pack mentality of targetting an individual with their own opinion. It was also apparent in a recent repair thread, talking about what was Basic equipment, that quickly went to be an embarassment with two people accusing an experienced pen person of being a bloody clown and another calling them a Troll because their point of view was different from their own and that they had read more into the question than perhaps was apparent or intended.

    These are personal opinions, not facts, argue over the facts if you like for God's sake but why argue with someone because they have a different opinion to your own, that is the text book definition of a BIGOT, is that really how you want the world to see you?
    Last edited by Fermata; July 28th, 2020 at 06:03 AM.

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  7. #166
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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Fermata, I agree. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and there was some intriguing data out there on it. I sought only to explore this and hadn't noticed that I may have slid into a bigoted mind space. Something for me to work on I guess (there is always so much to work on!)

    Chuck, when you say these are "The concepts that I've personally mentioned", this is only true in the sense that I brought these concepts to the attention of other people. It is not necessarily the case that I personally am affected by such concepts, but it seems to me that you think I am, and I object to that because it really isn't true.

    Lastly, in talking about the research that has been done in this area, conclusions are drawn when a significant portion of a population exhibits certain traits or trends. Not 'some'. Using the word 'some' implies that it is a minority of the population. The research says otherwise.

    Beyond that though, I agree with you also, Chuck. There are people for whom the 'agony of choice', either before, during or after the act, plays a greater part - sometimes an overwhelming part. And there are certainly people who are mostly unaffected by the majority of choices that they face. It is important to recognise the difference between individuals and populations when discussing this kind of subject.

    As for myself, my most difficult real life decisions (not web side) generally are those that may significantly impact on other people. That's likely true of many of us I guess. Other, lesser decisions, may present some challenges, but mostly I can let go of the ones that I stuff up without much or any angst.

    So, I think we should be able to agree that there is both common ground here, as well as some interesting population projections from the data?
    The thing is, we're all pretty on edge at the moment. It would be great if people could be considerate of others in these matters. Not much else will change the situation beyond that. - Jon Szanto

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto

    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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  9. #167
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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    So many threads end badly on FPG.
    Take a look at those threads. See who is in them, starting them. It is a fraction of the members causing these issues. Donít paint with a broad brush, and donít impugn the character and motivations of a generally good and welcoming community.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    That appears to be aimed at me, so shame on you for not following your own advice.

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto
    This thread was started in good faith because it was potentially interesting. It is very disappointing for a senior member to make a thinly veiled accusation that it was started with the intent to sow discord or create division.
    The thing is, we're all pretty on edge at the moment. It would be great if people could be considerate of others in these matters. Not much else will change the situation beyond that. - Jon Szanto

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto

    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    So many threads end badly on FPG.
    Take a look at those threads. See who is in them, starting them. It is a fraction of the members causing these issues. Donít paint with a broad brush, and donít impugn the character and motivations of a generally good and welcoming community.
    A reminder as to what was said

    "So many threads end badly on FPG.

    Decent and good people, who I am sure would be enjoyable company in the real world, allow themselves to be the aggressors. We have seen this on here, including a pack mentality of targetting an individual with their own opinion. It was also apparent in a recent repair thread, talking about what was Basic equipment, that quickly went to be an embarassment with two people accusing an experienced pen person of being a bloody clown and another calling them a Troll because their point of view was different from their own and that they had read more into the question than perhaps was apparent or intended.

    These are personal opinions, not facts, argue over the facts if you like for God's sake but why argue with someone because they have a different opinion to your own, that is the text book definition of a BIGOT, is that really how you want the world to see you? "

    We have all seen the threads that end badly and a number of different people have been involved, too many have been abusive, too many have resorted to name calling, too many have been critical of personal opinions.

    I think that the brush may be broader than you think.

    You are talking garbage with your reference to impugning characters and motivations, if people want to get pissy for a difference in opinion then that is a poor way to be a champion of FPG, in my opinion.

    I think I understand Empty of Clouds motivations in starting threads which he thought might be interesting.

    I see and I am therefore aware of the good that people do, I also see abuse, to call people names and insult them because they do not agree with you is bigotted behavior, whether they are your friends or not.

    Don't tell me what to do Jon and I won't tell you what to do, ok?
    Last edited by Fermata; July 28th, 2020 at 12:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    That appears to be aimed at me, so shame on you for not following your own advice.

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto
    This thread was started in good faith because it was potentially interesting. It is very disappointing for a senior member to make a thinly veiled accusation that it was started with the intent to sow discord or create division.
    Jon said something over in the 'basic tools' thread that might be relevant here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    That's the way it is on here John, people get pissy when you don't agree with them.
    Not so. People respond to attitudes and demeanors, and it isn't a given. Sometimes umbrage is felt specifically when it is sought out.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Generally I would agree, catbert, but in this case any umbrage I feel at Jon's remark is somewhat justified, as the remark seems to be clearly a dig at me (see bolded part in quote):

    Take a look at those threads. See who is in them, starting them. It is a fraction of the members causing these issues. Donít paint with a broad brush, and donít impugn the character and motivations of a generally good and welcoming community.
    I wrote my response to this in some haste (it was 5:30am here), and had intended to delete it and represent myself via a PM rather than publicly. However, in the time it took me to drive to work there have been other responses quoting me, so I cannot do that now.

    This is where this thread should stop, because it is now becoming a meta discussion, the kind which don't tend to end well.
    The thing is, we're all pretty on edge at the moment. It would be great if people could be considerate of others in these matters. Not much else will change the situation beyond that. - Jon Szanto

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto

    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Generally I would agree, catbert, but in this case any umbrage I feel at Jon's remark is somewhat justified, as the remark seems to be clearly a dig at me (see bolded part in quote):

    Take a look at those threads. See who is in them, starting them. It is a fraction of the members causing these issues. Donít paint with a broad brush, and donít impugn the character and motivations of a generally good and welcoming community.
    I wrote my response to this in some haste (it was 5:30am here), and had intended to delete it and represent myself via a PM rather than publicly. However, in the time it took me to drive to work there have been other responses quoting me, so I cannot do that now.

    This is where this thread should stop, because it is now becoming a meta discussion, the kind which don't tend to end well.
    Fair enough. I will add only that I did not see a dig aimed at this thread, which raised an interesting question with experimental data to support it.

    A case could be made that some of your other threads by their very nature would not go well ó the 'woe is me' variety or the ones where we seemed to be participating in some kind of psychology experiment ó but at least you regularly start threads. I digress.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    You are talking garbage...
    Thanks. Such a stellar example of how youíd like to see things go.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    What the heck happened here? Fermata, are your remarks pointed at me? Maybe you can just be more direct and use the quote function so we know who/what you are castigating as "bigotry".

  20. #175
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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by catbert View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Generally I would agree, catbert, but in this case any umbrage I feel at Jon's remark is somewhat justified, as the remark seems to be clearly a dig at me (see bolded part in quote):

    Take a look at those threads. See who is in them, starting them. It is a fraction of the members causing these issues. Donít paint with a broad brush, and donít impugn the character and motivations of a generally good and welcoming community.
    I wrote my response to this in some haste (it was 5:30am here), and had intended to delete it and represent myself via a PM rather than publicly. However, in the time it took me to drive to work there have been other responses quoting me, so I cannot do that now.

    This is where this thread should stop, because it is now becoming a meta discussion, the kind which don't tend to end well.
    Fair enough. I will add only that I did not see a dig aimed at this thread, which raised an interesting question with experimental data to support it.

    A case could be made that some of your other threads by their very nature would not go well ó the 'woe is me' variety or the ones where we seemed to be participating in some kind of psychology experiment ó but at least you regularly start threads. I digress.
    Heh! Haven't started a 'woe is me' thread since the beginning of November 2019. Perhaps I'm overdue? Just kidding. As for the psych experiments, I find nearly every forum thread has elements that would lend themselves to psych analysis. Though I am sure that could be said of even the most cursory observation of human behaviour! I do regularly start threads, as I hate to see the forum stagnating, and I don't generally try to be controversial; I just have an inquisitive bent.


    Anyway, here:



    One of the six Devas.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; July 28th, 2020 at 01:59 PM.
    The thing is, we're all pretty on edge at the moment. It would be great if people could be considerate of others in these matters. Not much else will change the situation beyond that. - Jon Szanto

    Why canít people read responses to glean the intent and ideas being offered, instead of focusing on things like tone, length and perceived agendas? - Jon Szanto

    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    This thread should have ended at post #166.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    So many threads end badly on FPG.
    Take a look at those threads. See who is in them, starting them. It is a fraction of the members causing these issues. Donít paint with a broad brush, and donít impugn the character and motivations of a generally good and welcoming community.
    A reminder as to what was said

    "So many threads end badly on FPG.

    Decent and good people, who I am sure would be enjoyable company in the real world, allow themselves to be the aggressors. We have seen this on here, including a pack mentality of targetting an individual with their own opinion. It was also apparent in a recent repair thread, talking about what was Basic equipment, that quickly went to be an embarassment with two people accusing an experienced pen person of being a bloody clown and another calling them a Troll because their point of view was different from their own and that they had read more into the question than perhaps was apparent or intended.

    These are personal opinions, not facts, argue over the facts if you like for God's sake but why argue with someone because they have a different opinion to your own, that is the text book definition of a BIGOT, is that really how you want the world to see you? "

    We have all seen the threads that end badly and a number of different people have been involved, too many have been abusive, too many have resorted to name calling, too many have been critical of personal opinions.

    I think that the brush may be broader than you think.

    You are talking garbage with your reference to impugning characters and motivations, if people want to get pissy for a difference in opinion then that is a poor way to be a champion of FPG, in my opinion.

    I think I understand Empty of Clouds motivations in starting threads which he thought might be interesting.

    I see and I am therefore aware of the good that people do, I also see abuse, to call people names and insult them because they do not agree with you is bigotted behavior, whether they are your friends or not.

    Don't tell me what to do Jon and I won't tell you what to do, ok?
    I am so glad to see you cuddling up to E_o_C now after all the unpleasant things you had to say about him a few weeks ago. Perhaps it isn't bigotry when it's done in PMs. There are few things more contemptible than a turncoat, Fermata. You disgust me.

    If anyone wants evidence of Fermata's reptilian behaviour just let me know. I have it all.
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