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Thread: Rabbit holes

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    That's a very long, incoherent paragraph. It does not communicate well. Try again.
    It wasn't written to you. My conversation with you on this topic is over.
    So, when you are not successful having an objective conversation that does not line up with how you think you decide to run away? That's really sad and especially for someone in education.
    Chuck, that is not very cool.

    TSherbs laid out his arguments consistently and if you guys don't agree in the end, then that's alright.
    No one is "running away" anywhere (we are all in self-quarantine, yeah?).

    Let's extend some more grace, especially when we have no feud with each other, other than disagreeing in a forum.
    - Will
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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    I did a little more poking around and found this on Wikipedia. It is a summary of the findings of one researcher (in his book, "The Paradox of Choice") on the correlation in America between increased choice and decreased happiness. There are listed about 20 other links to related topics, all of which explore ideas related to the ones that EOC first postulated here.

    It turns out that the "burden" of choice is a widely explored topic. One meta study even demonstrated that offering consumers fewer choices meant that more items were sold. In another study, when consumers were offered fewer choices of jam, the resulting ratings of the experience of eating the jam went up (fewer choices meant greater product satisfaction). Other studies did not confirm this inverse relationship. All quite interesting to think about.

    Wikipedia on the Paradox of Choice

    edited to add: turns out that this is the same book that EOC mentioned in his first post. So, two of us have looked at it, anyway. Sorry about the redundancy.


    .
    Last edited by TSherbs; July 15th, 2020 at 11:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I did a little more poking around and found this on Wikipedia. It is a summary of the findings of one researcher (in his book, "The Paradox of Choice") on the correlation in America between increased choice and decreased happiness. There are listed about 20 other links to related topics, all of which explore ideas related to the ones that EOC first postulated here.

    It turns out that the "burden" of choice is a widely explored topic. One meta study even demonstrated that offering consumers fewer choices meant that more items were sold. In another study, when consumers were offered fewer choices of jam, the resulting ratings of the experience of eating the jam went up (fewer choices meant greater product satisfaction). Other studies did not confirm this inverse relationship. All quite interesting to think about.

    Wikipedia on the Paradox of Choice
    Here's a brief article by Barry Schwartz about Sheena Iyengar's jam choice study. https://hbr.org/2006/06/more-isnt-always-better

    There was an interesting discussion with Sheena Iyengar on NPR Hidden Brain back in May: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/04/85010...=1594835877809

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by catbert View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I did a little more poking around and found this on Wikipedia. It is a summary of the findings of one researcher (in his book, "The Paradox of Choice") on the correlation in America between increased choice and decreased happiness. There are listed about 20 other links to related topics, all of which explore ideas related to the ones that EOC first postulated here.

    It turns out that the "burden" of choice is a widely explored topic. One meta study even demonstrated that offering consumers fewer choices meant that more items were sold. In another study, when consumers were offered fewer choices of jam, the resulting ratings of the experience of eating the jam went up (fewer choices meant greater product satisfaction). Other studies did not confirm this inverse relationship. All quite interesting to think about.

    Wikipedia on the Paradox of Choice
    Here's a brief article by Barry Schwartz about Sheena Iyengar's jam choice study. https://hbr.org/2006/06/more-isnt-always-better

    There was an interesting discussion with Sheena Iyengar on NPR Hidden Brain back in May: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/04/85010...=1594835877809
    What's ironic for this thread is that the Harvard Business Review article by Schwartz even says that this paradox holds true for choices of ice cream. See above.

    I'll look next at the NPR piece. Thanks for these, catbert.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    That's a very long, incoherent paragraph. It does not communicate well. Try again.
    It wasn't written to you. My conversation with you on this topic is over.
    So, when you are not successful having an objective conversation that does not line up with how you think you decide to run away? That's really sad and especially for someone in education.
    Chuck, that is not very cool.

    TSherbs laid out his arguments consistently and if you guys don't agree in the end, then that's alright.
    No one is "running away" anywhere (we are all in self-quarantine, yeah?).

    Let's extend some more grace, especially when we have no feud with each other, other than disagreeing in a forum.
    Okay, grace extended, Penwash. So, I've explained my arguments consistently as well but I am in the minority opinion.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    TS-
    And what unit of measurement does one use to gauge the change in a happiness state? Giggles?

    But seriously folks.... What objective unit does one use to measure a subjective condition? Always willing to learn.
    cf EOC's post above

    "Happiness" is usually "measured" (Assessed? Quantified? Described?) by using correlated conditions that are more easily and objectively measured. But also, individuals are surveyed about their own feelings. "Happiness" has been assessed many times even though it is not an objective material unit itself. There are also stress responses in the body that can be objectively measured. And with facial recognition technology now, programs can be written to recognize happiness facial movements. All of this is likely reliant upon a matrix of correlated data about objective measurable conditions and self-reported states of feeling (happiness, sadness, stress, relaxation, etc.).
    "Measured" is well to be in quotes. "Assessment" comes closer, as self-reporting is subjective.

    I understand that not everything is capable of objective measurement. I would be interested to learn about how to measure stress responses. For a period of time thermograms supposedly "measured" pain, until it was shown that it was capable of manipulation and that there was no direct correlation with pain.

    It's OK that not everything can be quantified. At the 1999 Chicago penshow I got meet Susan Wirth, who was demonstrating cursive, shaded handwriting. Like the novice I was, I asked how hard I had to push to get that degree of shading. She responded, roughly, "As hard as it takes."


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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Sorry to add to anyone's stress, but .....https://www.jetpens.com/blog/the-36-...in-pens/pt/974

    I'll go on record to report that I never stress when deciding on which ice cream flavor...LOL!!
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; July 15th, 2020 at 01:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by catbert View Post
    ...

    There was an interesting discussion with Sheena Iyengar on NPR Hidden Brain back in May: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/04/85010...=1594835877809
    This is even more interesting (and complicated). It turns out that the several studies mentioned in this discussion reveal the very complicated psychological responses we have to (1) having many choices available, (2) making choices (even the order of their complexity matters), (3) being satisfied with choices once we have made them, (4) the degree to which an entire culture values choice-making.

    I love how they have even studied in restaurants the order of choice-making at a table and the degree of "freedom" being exercised at each ordinal order-maker from table to table (who orders first, second, third, etc.), and then whether one is "happy" with the choice they made. Turns out that those who order first are most predictable (homogeneous) in decision and most happy. Those folks who order later around the table tend to be more "different" (less predictable) in their ordering and less happy with their decisions.

    To boost sales, some of these pen/ink companies might want to consider reducing the options available. I'll say this: Robert Oster has left me in the dust. For a while I was interested in exploring some of his inks. But now? There are new inks every month (it seems) and I no longer have the energy or inclination to keep up. Besides, why buy a nice blue from them now when an even better one might show up two weeks from now? (and the answer is not "just buy everything that comes out". Very few customers actually behave that way).

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    TS-
    And what unit of measurement does one use to gauge the change in a happiness state? Giggles?

    But seriously folks.... What objective unit does one use to measure a subjective condition? Always willing to learn.
    cf EOC's post above

    "Happiness" is usually "measured" (Assessed? Quantified? Described?) by using correlated conditions that are more easily and objectively measured. But also, individuals are surveyed about their own feelings. "Happiness" has been assessed many times even though it is not an objective material unit itself. There are also stress responses in the body that can be objectively measured. And with facial recognition technology now, programs can be written to recognize happiness facial movements. All of this is likely reliant upon a matrix of correlated data about objective measurable conditions and self-reported states of feeling (happiness, sadness, stress, relaxation, etc.).
    "Measured" is well to be in quotes. "Assessment" comes closer, as self-reporting is subjective.

    I understand that not everything is capable of objective measurement. I would be interested to learn about how to measure stress responses. For a period of time thermograms supposedly "measured" pain, until it was shown that it was capable of manipulation and that there was no direct correlation with pain.

    It's OK that not everything can be quantified. At the 1999 Chicago penshow I got meet Susan Wirth, who was demonstrating cursive, shaded handwriting. Like the novice I was, I asked how hard I had to push to get that degree of shading. She responded, roughly, "As hard as it takes."

    Listen to the NPR piece. You will get some answers to your questions. Much of the data is empirical (things are counted and measurable). For subjective things, test subjects are asked questions. In analyzing data, all sorts of "normalizations" and other factors are used to account for variations in interpretation. Some studies, of course, are more rigorous than others.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    It seems irrational that anyone would want fewer choices. I listened to the NPR piece a few months back.

    https://www.futurity.org/more-choice...etter-choices/

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    For kazoolaw, one of a many peer reviewed articles discussing the measurement of stress:

    More than a feeling: A unified view of stress measurement for population science

    Epel ES, Crosswell AD, Mayer SE, Prather AA, Slavich GM, Puterman E, Berry Mendesa W


    It's important to think about exactly what is being measured. In my earlier example of a satisfaction question (Does my income meet my needs?) the intent of the question is not to measure the level of income nor the magnitude of the needs. Rather it is asking for a perception of how the two parts relate. It doesn't matter how much one earns if you cannot afford to pay your bills or buy food etc. So asking only about income would be a poor question, as an example.

    Similarly when we use pain perception surveys, while they may ask for a rating on a scale of say 1-10 with 10 being the maximum pain imaginable, your 10 and my 10 may be related to different causes, yet the perceived effect on us as individuals is the same, i.e the worst pain we can imagine.

    That's a bit of a digression from the paradox of choice, but hopefully clarifies a little on why subjective measures can still be useful.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Transcript of the NPR Hidden Brain episode with Iyengar here: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/850104564

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    It seems irrational that anyone would want fewer choices.
    Years ago, we embarked on a modest bathroom remodel. At one point the task became choosing the proper tile for both the floor and shower surround. I don't recall how many tile stores we went to, each with seemingly thousands of tile choices, even within a basic category encompassing hundreds with only infinitesimal differences between them. To say it had become a blur would be charitable. At some point all I could think was that I desperately wished I could walk into a store named TEN FUCKING TILE CHOICES ONLY! and I would be certain to easily find a final selection suited to my needs.

    Many times, most times probably, a large selection of choices is a positive. Not always, though, and I don't find that irrational but, frankly, quite practical and sensible.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    It seems irrational that anyone would want fewer choices.
    Years ago, we embarked on a modest bathroom remodel. At one point the task became choosing the proper tile for both the floor and shower surround. I don't recall how many tile stores we went to, each with seemingly thousands of tile choices, even within a basic category encompassing hundreds with only infinitesimal differences between them. To say it had become a blur would be charitable. At some point all I could think was that I desperately wished I could walk into a store named TEN FUCKING TILE CHOICES ONLY! and I would be certain to easily find a final selection suited to my needs.

    Many times, most times probably, a large selection of choices is a positive. Not always, though, and I don't find that irrational but, frankly, quite practical and sensible.
    I've built three houses and remodeled one. Never did I want fewer choices. I am dismissing your experiences, but that I cannot think of a single time where I would rather have ten choices if 100's were available.

    Ten choices would mean the store is deciding what you have available or prefer. Sort of like the old saying that you could have any color model T as long as it's black.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    For me, being extremely fussy about artistic and aesthetic objects, the stress would come because they (probably) don't actually have what I want. So, I'm left making decisions about which one I dislike the least. I am therefore making decisions about something which I actually don't know so much about and which I don't really want to learn about. If they actually had some excellent (to me) tiles, no matter how many choices, I'd pick out a good one in a minute.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I've built three houses and remodeled one. Never did I want fewer choices. I am dismissing your experiences*, but that I cannot think of a single time where I would rather have ten choices if 100's were available.

    Ten choices would mean the store is deciding what you have available or prefer. Sort of like the old saying that you could have any color model T as long as it's black.
    It isn't relevant how it affected you, I was speaking of my experience. In a myriad of situations, I love a nearly endless supply of options; this was not one of them, and it was a considered and thoughtful moment: I. Do. Not. Require. Hundreds. Of. Options. At. This. Time.

    You know the phrase YMMV? That.

    * In the statement I underlined, can I kindly assume that you left out "not" after "am"? I really hope so.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; July 15th, 2020 at 04:11 PM.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Curation. It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Years ago, we embarked on a modest bathroom remodel. At one point the task became choosing the proper tile for both the floor and shower surround. I don't recall how many tile stores we went to, each with seemingly thousands of tile choices, even within a basic category encompassing hundreds with only infinitesimal differences between them. To say it had become a blur would be charitable. At some point all I could think was that I desperately wished I could walk into a store named TEN FUCKING TILE CHOICES ONLY! and I would be certain to easily find a final selection suited to my needs.

    Many times, most times probably, a large selection of choices is a positive. Not always, though, and I don't find that irrational but, frankly, quite practical and sensible.
    The research suggests that they might sell more if they reduced the options. It's counter-intuitive (in America, where less is perceived as less, and more-is-more), but there it is. The research even showed that investors actually invest less (even with the incentive of free employer contributions) and make worse choices (in their own interest) when given too many options. Again, this seems counter-intuitive, but there it is. Some people like options. And options to a point are good. And then there is a point at which options are no longer a net benefit to the majority of customers. I also liked how Proctor and Gamble heard of this research, reduced their dandruff shampoo offerings, and greatly increased their sales. Ka-ching!
    Last edited by TSherbs; July 15th, 2020 at 04:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    For kazoolaw, one of a many peer reviewed articles discussing the measurement of stress:

    More than a feeling: A unified view of stress measurement for population science

    Epel ES, Crosswell AD, Mayer SE, Prather AA, Slavich GM, Puterman E, Berry Mendesa W

    *******************************
    That's a bit of a digression from the paradox of choice, but hopefully clarifies a little on why subjective measures can still be useful.
    Thanks for this, EOC. As anyone can see who looks at it, this is actually mostly a call for greater standardization of the terms and methods of measuring stress for research. But clearly, this is done in many different ways, both physiologically and verbally.

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    Default Re: Rabbit holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    For kazoolaw, one of a many peer reviewed articles discussing the measurement of stress:

    More than a feeling: A unified view of stress measurement for population science

    Epel ES, Crosswell AD, Mayer SE, Prather AA, Slavich GM, Puterman E, Berry Mendesa W


    It's important to think about exactly what is being measured. In my earlier example of a satisfaction question (Does my income meet my needs?) the intent of the question is not to measure the level of income nor the magnitude of the needs. Rather it is asking for a perception of how the two parts relate. It doesn't matter how much one earns if you cannot afford to pay your bills or buy food etc. So asking only about income would be a poor question, as an example.

    Similarly when we use pain perception surveys, while they may ask for a rating on a scale of say 1-10 with 10 being the maximum pain imaginable, your 10 and my 10 may be related to different causes, yet the perceived effect on us as individuals is the same, i.e the worst pain we can imagine.

    That's a bit of a digression from the paradox of choice, but hopefully clarifies a little on why subjective measures can still be useful.
    We do not agree on what "measure" means, but certainly agree that study of subjective responses can be useful.

    We can count the number of people who report their pain as a 10. We cannot measure the pain they characterize as the worst they can imagine; there are no standard units of pain.

    The appendix of the cited article, p. 37, repeatedly speaks of the subjective nature of perceived stress , subjective stress, and subjective responses. Just as their is no unit of pain there is no unit of stress. Which is understandable, until the social scientist claims a degree of precision that does not exist.

    We live our lives without precise measures. I like blue more than red. Steak tastes better than turnips. I prefer a stub nib to an EF.


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