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Thread: Private Messages

  1. #41
    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    My understanding is that most if not all forum platforms include the provision for admin/mods/IT Admin to inspect any Private Message especially follwoing complaints from other members of such things as harassment, coercion, fraud etc. When you think about it, it would only be logical for Admin to have that facility.
    Nope. At least not in the foss world. Message are typically handled by email, and so are not accessible by the mods, or in most cases the admins. They may be able to see the metadata, but not the messages themselves. GDPR has reinforced this: don't log or hold data, especially personal information, that you have no legitimate reason to.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Thank you Silverlifter, would you expect FPG, FPN and a few others that are similar to be Free and Open-source software.

    I had not thought about GDPR and I note your qualifier with regards to legitimacy, I think that a complaint from others with regards to harassment and so on would justify the legitimacy question.

    I suspect that some members on forums have had membership withdrawn after Mods have read their PMs.

    I don't want to labour the point but it seems to me that no Private Message can be thought of as truly private, as in 'For Your Eyes only' because the receiver is free to cut, paste and publish and also others in control (and FPG may be an exception, I don't know) may have access to whatever you say to others.

  4. #43
    Senior Member Ole Juul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    My understanding is that most if not all forum platforms include the provision for admin/mods/IT Admin to inspect any Private Message especially follwoing complaints from other members of such things as harassment, coercion, fraud etc. When you think about it, it would only be logical for Admin to have that facility.
    Nope. At least not in the foss world. Message are typically handled by email, and so are not accessible by the mods, or in most cases the admins. They may be able to see the metadata, but not the messages themselves. GDPR has reinforced this: don't log or hold data, especially personal information, that you have no legitimate reason to.
    vBulletin is far from foss though. I'm not up to date on current security issues, but vBulletin also has quite a checkered past in that regard.

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    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    I think that a complaint from others with regards to harassment and so on would justify the legitimacy question.
    Well, in order to be harassed in a PM, the victim by necessity must be a party to the conversation. Therefore they have access to the evidence and can provide it to the staff, or external authorities in the event of a breach of the law, to substantiate their allegations. So there is no legitimate reason for mods to have acess to private messages, in my view.

    Their is also an element of plausible deniability. In the case where conspirators are using the private message function of a forum to plan unlawful acts, would the staff be expected to be able monitor all pms just to expose such activities? Again, I can't think of a scenario where this would be desirable, either from an administrative or cultural perspective.

    Private messages are intended to be just that, private. If you set up your system in such a way that violates that principle, then you aren't running a "community", you are either a creep or part of the panopticon.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    I think that a complaint from others with regards to harassment and so on would justify the legitimacy question.
    Well, in order to be harassed in a PM, the victim by necessity must be a party to the conversation. Therefore they have access to the evidence and can provide it to the staff, or external authorities in the event of a breach of the law, to substantiate their allegations. So there is no legitimate reason for mods to have acess to private messages, in my view.

    Their is also an element of plausible deniability. In the case where conspirators are using the private message function of a forum to plan unlawful acts, would the staff be expected to be able monitor all pms just to expose such activities? Again, I can't think of a scenario where this would be desirable, either from an administrative or cultural perspective.

    Private messages are intended to be just that, private. If you set up your system in such a way that violates that principle, then you aren't running a "community", you are either a creep or part of the panopticon.
    The forum rule wasnt thinking of harassment in a PM, more open forum. For example I recall a husband and wife team who were forever ganging up on people that they disagreed with, a dual attack.

    The harsassment was therefore not in a PM but it was verified by the Mods who looked at the PMs, both were made to leave.

    I cannot see we are in the realm of unlawful acts here, you have gone a step or two too far. I would hope that Mods only review PMs when they have just cause.

    I agree your point on the intention of Private Messages, what I am saying is that they may not be as private and confidential as you might wish.
    Last edited by RobJohnson; August 4th, 2020 at 09:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    To restate, if it hasn't already been done in this thread, there are no mods here. And the owner is the only Admin (as far as anyone knows). While the owner appears to play little to no part in the daily functioning of the website, they are often quick to respond to direct contact.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    ...I would hope that Mods only review PMs when they have just cause....
    There are none. Mods, that is.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Once you say or write it, it's out "in the wild".

    If you don't say (or write) things you're not willing to stand by, then there's really no problem.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    When a Vespa was a motorcycle.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Oh yeah. The UK in the middle 1960s. There were the 'Mods' with their Lambretta and Vespa scooters and coats, ties and nice clothes, and then there were the rockers (AKA 'leather boys') with their BSA, Triumph, etc. motorcycles -- or as we called them, 'motor-bikes'. Fun days, long ago.

    Here is a link for the curious too young to remember it: https://www.anglotopia.net/british-i...s-moral-panic/


    If you must know, I had a motorbike back then.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Oh yeah. The UK in the middle 1960s. There were the 'Mods' with their Lambretta and Vespa scooters and coats, ties and nice clothes, and then there were the rockers (AKA 'leather boys') with their BSA, Triumph, etc. motorcycles -- or as we called them, 'motor-bikes'. Fun days, long ago.

    BTW, a Vespa was never a 'motorcycle' nor will it ever be.

    Here is a link for the curious too young to remember it: https://www.anglotopia.net/british-i...s-moral-panic/


    If you must know, I had a motorbike back then.

  20. #53
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Here is a link for the curious too young to remember it...
    Ah, if only that were the case! Probably in no time at all, I'll be too old to remember those days.

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    To restate, if it hasn't already been done in this thread, there are no mods here. And the owner is the only Admin (as far as anyone knows). While the owner appears to play little to no part in the daily functioning of the website, they are often quick to respond to direct contact.
    Someone locked a thread: owner or mod?

    Is the "owner" more than one person: "While the owner...they are often quick...." We all make spelling or grammatical errors, and I get confused at pairing what I think is a singular noun [owner] with a plural pronoun [they].

    Just looking for clarification.


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    Default Re: Private Messages

    In this situation I think that the reference to 'they' applies to a single person.


    On a seperate issue, and I am no grammar expert, I understand that there is a growing movement to avoid the use of he or she in descriptions and to make the sentence fit the use of the word 'they', the correct phrase is a singular they.

    In the past you might have said

    Everyone should enjoy his or her new pen.

    to

    Everyone should enjoy their new pen

    or

    Each student student at the pen repair class submitted their work to the teacher.

    and not

    Each student at the pen repair class submitted his or her work to the teacher.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    To restate, if it hasn't already been done in this thread, there are no mods here. And the owner is the only Admin (as far as anyone knows). While the owner appears to play little to no part in the daily functioning of the website, they are often quick to respond to direct contact.
    Someone locked a thread: owner or mod?

    Is the "owner" more than one person: "While the owner...they are often quick...." We all make spelling or grammatical errors, and I get confused at pairing what I think is a singular noun [owner] with a plural pronoun [they].

    Just looking for clarification.



    Use “they” as a generic third-person singular pronoun to refer to a person whose gender is unknown or irrelevant to the context of the usage.

    From the American Psychological Association (APA) guide on style and grammar. [note, I work in academic research so have a tendency to use this kind of styling]


    As for the locked thread, it was locked after I had reported a post as being beyond acceptable. Whether I was the only one to do so I do not know. Either way, the owner locked it quickly and, though their actions required a response in this case, we've lost a valuable member of the "community".

    That last post is a good example of why people should take their off-topic disagreements to PM rather than airing them publically.

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  26. #57
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    To restate, if it hasn't already been done in this thread, there are no mods here. And the owner is the only Admin (as far as anyone knows). While the owner appears to play little to no part in the daily functioning of the website, they are often quick to respond to direct contact.
    Is the "owner" more than one person: "While the owner...they are often quick...." We all make spelling or grammatical errors, and I get confused at pairing what I think is a singular noun [owner] with a plural pronoun [they].

    Just looking for clarification.
    It's a tricky one. However, knowing that the owner is singular and male I would have used he and not they in that particular sentence especially as it follows "While the owner appears to play little to no part" which has already suggested the owner as a singular noun in the same sentence.
    Last edited by Chrissy; August 5th, 2020 at 02:27 PM.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Review Blog: inkyfountainpens

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; August 5th, 2020 at 02:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Here is a link for the curious too young to remember it...
    Ah, if only that were the case! Probably in no time at all, I'll be too old to remember those days.

    I ride a GS scooter with my hair cut neat
    Wear my war-time coat in the wind and sleet

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    GS scooter? Is that a Vespa with TKC80s?

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