Private Messages

[TSherbs]

Dunno.

It's a song lyric from the album that Jon Sz referenced: one of my favorite albums of all time.

I'm not schizophrenic, I'm bloody quadrophenic!

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

[An old bloke]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

[RobJohnson]

To restate, if it hasn't already been done in this thread, there are no mods here. And the owner is the only Admin (as far as anyone knows). While the owner appears to play little to no part in the daily functioning of the website, they are often quick to respond to direct contact.

Someone locked a thread: owner or mod?

Is the "owner" more than one person: "While the owner...they are often quick...." We all make spelling or grammatical errors, and I get confused at pairing what I think is a singular noun [owner] with a plural pronoun [they].

Just looking for clarification.

As for the locked thread, it was locked after I had reported a post as being beyond acceptable. Whether I was the only one to do so I do not know. Either way, the owner locked it quickly and, though their actions required a response in this case, we've lost a valuable member of the "community".

That last post is a good example of why people should take their off-topic disagreements to PM rather than airing them publically.

That is magnanimous of you given that the poster in question referrenced you.

[TSherbs]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Actually, it is grammatical now. The rule has changed in this case. Grammar rules have all sorts of exceptions-- the exceptions are grammatical too. Antecedents no longer have to match their pronouns in number in all cases. It is no longer an "all" requirement.



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

[An old bloke]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Actually, it is grammatical now. The rule has changed in this case. Grammar rules have all sorts of exceptions-- the exceptions are grammatical too. Antecedents no longer have to match their pronouns in number in all cases. It is no longer an "all" requirement.



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

I don't disagree, but try telling that to a copy editor or proof reader.

[catbert]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Actually, it is grammatical now. The rule has changed in this case. Grammar rules have all sorts of exceptions-- the exceptions are grammatical too. Antecedents no longer have to match their pronouns in number in all cases. It is no longer an "all" requirement.



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

I don't disagree, but try telling that to a copy editor or proof reader.

A brief history of singular 'they' (OED)

[silverlifter]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Actually, it is grammatical now. The rule has changed in this case. Grammar rules have all sorts of exceptions-- the exceptions are grammatical too. Antecedents no longer have to match their pronouns in number in all cases. It is no longer an "all" requirement.



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

I don't disagree, but try telling that to a copy editor or proof reader.

No need.

[Ole Juul]

They, is soooo 2019.

Merriam-Webster: Non-binary pronoun 'they' is word of year

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Actually, it is grammatical now. The rule has changed in this case. Grammar rules have all sorts of exceptions-- the exceptions are grammatical too. Antecedents no longer have to match their pronouns in number in all cases. It is no longer an "all" requirement.



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

I don't disagree, but try telling that to a copy editor or proof reader.

That's funny to me. Among the many different roles I play in my working life is that of both copy editor and proof reader, and that's on the submission side. I am also on the editorial board of an international scientific journal. The thing is, most journals dictate the style they want. APA is one of the more common ones. Apart from this, language evolves. A grammar guide from 50 years ago contains 'rules' that have been reworked, updated or just plain discarded today. In 50 years time no doubt this will change again. It's kind of fun having to keep up, though at times also a touch irritating.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

To restate, if it hasn't already been done in this thread, there are no mods here. And the owner is the only Admin (as far as anyone knows). While the owner appears to play little to no part in the daily functioning of the website, they are often quick to respond to direct contact.

Someone locked a thread: owner or mod?

Is the "owner" more than one person: "While the owner...they are often quick...." We all make spelling or grammatical errors, and I get confused at pairing what I think is a singular noun [owner] with a plural pronoun [they].

Just looking for clarification.

As for the locked thread, it was locked after I had reported a post as being beyond acceptable. Whether I was the only one to do so I do not know. Either way, the owner locked it quickly and, though their actions required a response in this case, we've lost a valuable member of the "community".

That last post is a good example of why people should take their off-topic disagreements to PM rather than airing them publically.

That is magnanimous of you given that the poster in question referrenced you.

Perhaps, but in this case I was merely trying to be factual. Deb has indicated to me that she has withdrawn from the forum, and no doubt has to those who she considers friends (i.e. anyone other than me!). It is a pity because her knowledge and helpfulness (even to me) will be missed by many here.

It's curious. In spite of some of the heated arguments I've been involved in, I don't really dislike anyone here. It's just how my mind and heart work.

[TSherbs]

I don't disagree, but try telling that to a copy editor or proof reader.

Although I am technically a high school teacher of literature, I have to grade students on their grammar, including their pronoun usage. And I occasionally function as a copy editor for school materials. So it behooves me to be up-to-date on accepted practices. The singular "their" is officially accepted by professional copy editors (albeit not *all* of them).

Style manuals that now accept singular "they" (with limitations):

APA
Associated Press Stylebook
Chicago Manual of Style

[An old bloke]

I don't disagree, but try telling that to a copy editor or proof reader.

Although I am technically a high school teacher of literature, I have to grade students on their grammar, including their pronoun usage. And I occasionally function as a copy editor for school materials. So it behooves me to be up-to-date on accepted practices. The singular "their" is officially accepted by professional copy editors (albeit not *all* of them).

Style manuals that now accept singular "they" (with limitations):

APA
Associated Press Stylebook
Chicago Manual of Style

The bookcase to the immediate right of my computer desk is full of dictionaries (two of which are Oxford Press), grammar manuals including the Collins and the Oxford English; A Guide to the Language, and numerous punctuation guides. While I am retired now I have written numerous articles, a number of research papers and even copy edited another author's book length manuscript. I am a reader and fan GK Chesterton, Hillaire Belloc, and numerous other early to middle 20th Century writers. This being the case, I am well aware that our language changes, that style, and even word usage and meanings change. Language has evolved from the language of even two decades ago, and will continue long after I am gone. Yet, change, as Chesterton pointed out about a century ago, is not always good. There is some virtue in retaining tradition, and yes Chesterton said that as well. Some of seek to retain some of our language's traditions if only to make the wisdom and the words of our earlier writers accessible.

There is also the element of the artistic in our language, the use of words to express an idea or an emotion, that should not be lost. Do we, or should we, allow the art of the word to be lost in the technical?

[TSherbs]

....

There is also the element of the artistic in our language, the use of words to express an idea or an emotion, that should not be lost. Do we, or should we, allow the art of the word to be lost in the technical?

No art or significant tradition is being lost here. Your questions/concerns strike me as hyperbolic. It's just a pronoun variance with limited scope of application, lol.

Shakespeare introduced more change than this! Was "art" lost?

Whatever standard of language you admire most was also a new change at some point, hounded by its detractors. There was no true Golden Age.

Feel me?



Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

[An old bloke]

No, I don't 'feel' you whatever that is supposed to mean.

I actually agree with what you are saying, and I am not suggesting that neither we nor our language remain static. No hyperbole is intended. I am only offering food for thought here, specifically, '... Chesterton pointed out about a century ago, is not always good. There is some virtue in retaining tradition, and yes Chesterton said that as well. Some of seek to retain some of our language's traditions if only to make the wisdom and the words of our earlier writers accessible. There is also the element of the artistic in our language, the use of words to express an idea or an emotion, that should not be lost. Do we, or should we, allow the art of the word to be lost in the technical?' Am I wrong to do so?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I can't speak for anyone else of course, but when a change such as the one in discussion here occurs, it does not replace my previous understanding of the 'rules'. It adds to it. So nothing is really lost. I, and no doubt many others, can easily read and understand English text all the way back to and including Chaucer, maybe even earlier. It is my guess that this kind of skill is more important to those of us who feel it is important! Language and rule drift largely don't affect the majority of people I also guess. Interesting topic.

[guyy]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Grammar is made up after the fact, by people who take note of linguistic practice and decide on norms. Not all grammarians agree what those norms are. One thing is certain: as a language evolves, so too will its grammar.

[An old bloke]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Grammar is made up after the fact, by people who take note of linguistic practice and decide on norms. Not all grammarians agree what those norms are. One thing is certain: as a language evolves, so too will its grammar.

True. Also, grammatic rules and usage can differ regionally. For instance, "quotation marks" is correct usage in the US and Australia, but 'quotation marks' is correct in the UK an Ireland. Word spellings differ as well.

[An old bloke]

Neither is incorrect, as noted in my APA reference for when the gender of the person in question is irrelevant.

I'll offer that while your APA reference has a nice politically correct ring to it, and solves a psychologist's problem of not 'gender-ising', it is not grammatically correct. Correct grammar is to use, 'he or she'. Yes, that assumes the binary, and does not allow for those who identify as asexual or 'other', in which case one can use the only English language gender neutral pronoun, 'it'. The reality is someone, somewhere, somehow may be offended no matter what pronoun is used, but you will be grammatically correct.

In the end, it is your choice what you use.

Grammar is made up after the fact, by people who take note of linguistic practice and decide on norms. Not all grammarians agree what those norms are. One thing is certain: as a language evolves, so too will its grammar.

True. Also, grammatic rules and usage can differ regionally. For instance, "quotation marks" is correct usage in the US and Australia, but 'quotation marks' is correct in the UK an Ireland. Word spellings differ as well.

[Jon Szanto]

English-utilizing humans still regularly butcher their/they're/there. I have precious little hope that the ever-expanding gender linguistic challenge will be met with much success.

[Chrissy]

English-utilizing humans still regularly butcher their/they're/there. I have precious little hope that the ever-expanding gender linguistic challenge will be met with much success.

I've been reading a few things about it and found that it's accepted and regularly used especially in situations when you don't know or need to know the gender applicable pronoun.
As far as Eric, the owner/administrator is concerned, he is known as Eric and male so respectfully I would still refer to him as he/his/him.