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Thread: Private Messages

  1. #121
    Golden Ghost Chemyst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages


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    dneal (August 9th, 2020), Johnny_S (August 9th, 2020)

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    To return to the OP, and to summarise, privacy in correspondence is a function of the ethics of the participants.

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    RobJohnson (August 9th, 2020)

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Yes I would agree with that, truth and honesty. I have thought that the point of a PM was because you wanted to say or ask something confidence that you did not want to seen by all, but if the recipient shares that information with others then ethics and integrity are minimal.

    Trust no one and one day you may be surprised.

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    Senior Member Pterodactylus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    Some people would say that the use of he or she in a sentence is not relevant and that language should move towards non gender based descriptions.

    I would be interested to hear of whether this approach applies to other languages, and indeed cultures. For example, I have a colleague who is Japanese and he regards the perfect wife as someone who polishes his shoes on her knees as he walks out the door in the morning.
    You really know such a relict?
    Incredible, I thought they are extinct since many centuries in the developed world, despite some rumors from time to time.

    Such artifacts should be showcased in museums in special exhibitions about human male stupidity.

    ... or be shipped with a one way ticket to some Muslim fundamentalist dominated areas where they can live their medieval fetish dream.
    Never read a post quite like that, not sure that I would want to read a post like that again.
    And I’m not sure if I want to debate anything with people who think treating women like inventory or a personal property is tolerable.

  7. #125
    Senior Member Johnny_S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Chemyst View Post
    I am intrigued by your envelope Chemyst, being interested in postal ephemera, this is a letter mailed in 1941 in Harpenden, Hertfordshire, England, a town I know very well, sent to North America by airmail and opened by a security service and resealed. Would you think that this private letter was opened by security in the US or prior to leaving England and do you know why there is no address and yet the envelope has been franked?

    I take your point - there is no such thing as a truly Private Messages even by snail mail.
    Last edited by Johnny_S; August 9th, 2020 at 12:39 PM.

  8. #126
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    Some people would say that the use of he or she in a sentence is not relevant and that language should move towards non gender based descriptions.

    I would be interested to hear of whether this approach applies to other languages, and indeed cultures. For example, I have a colleague who is Japanese and he regards the perfect wife as someone who polishes his shoes on her knees as he walks out the door in the morning.
    That's kinkily specific.

    "I've got a friend..."

  9. #127
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Silver, then how about this example:

    "I have three brothers: Henry, Frank and John."

    Is there some sort of ambiguity or confusion here about the brothers' names?
    That's not a good example because you gave the number of items in the list. That adds a data point external to what's under discussion....
    .
    "Rubbish". It IS a good example of how the Oxford comma is not ALWAYS necessary for clarity. That's the whole point of being flexible (and not absolutist) with the rule. I have not and would not claim that the Oxford comma is NEVER necessary. Absolutist claims, like those above, are not defensible in practice. There are clear, easy examples when that additional comma is superfluous for clarity (and I gave examples). I know of what I speak. It is my profession. I have to make these judgments daily (when school is in session).

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    "Rubbish" quoted E o C's comment and wasn't directed to or at you.

    I also have some experience with "models of clarity," having litigated throughout my career what various writers thought was perfectly clear. Including the dreaded "and/or."

  10. #128
    Senior Member Ole Juul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Silver, then how about this example:

    "I have three brothers: Henry, Frank and John."

    Is there some sort of ambiguity or confusion here about the brothers' names?
    That's not a good example because you gave the number of items in the list. That adds a data point external to what's under discussion....
    .
    "Rubbish". It IS a good example of how the Oxford comma is not ALWAYS necessary for clarity. That's the whole point of being flexible (and not absolutist) with the rule. I have not and would not claim that the Oxford comma is NEVER necessary. Absolutist claims, like those above, are not defensible in practice. There are clear, easy examples when that additional comma is superfluous for clarity (and I gave examples). I know of what I speak. It is my profession. I have to make these judgments daily (when school is in session).

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    "Rubbish" quoted E o C's comment and wasn't directed to or at you.

    I also have some experience with "models of clarity," having litigated throughout my career what various writers thought was perfectly clear. Including the dreaded "and/or."
    I don't know who you are referring to as "you", but if it's me, I certainly wasn't offended. Because he (TS, I mean) was right.

    In any case, there is something else to consider besides clarity, and that is how something reads. The example that TS gave, like most sentences without the comma, is somewhat jarring. Perhaps it's my mild autism, but I'm probably not the only one who is stopped in my tracks and irritated when I see such a sentence. Is the writer completely unconcerned about such an effect? Perhaps they're not sensitive to it. In any case, I don't like it, and subsequently choose to not do it myself.

  11. #129
    Senior Member carlos.q's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    To return to the OP, and to summarise, privacy in correspondence is a function of the ethics of the participants.
    I would agree with this. Last year our island's governor had to resign because his "private" messages sent on an encrypted telephone app (Telegram) were divulged by one of the participants. The only difference was that the governor's messages were completely unethical, vulgar, mysoginistic, homophobic, and all around creepy awful. So I believe the ethical thing to do in that case was to make the "private" message public.

  12. #130
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Silver, then how about this example:

    "I have three brothers: Henry, Frank and John."

    Is there some sort of ambiguity or confusion here about the brothers' names?
    That's not a good example because you gave the number of items in the list. That adds a data point external to what's under discussion....
    .
    "Rubbish". It IS a good example of how the Oxford comma is not ALWAYS necessary for clarity. That's the whole point of being flexible (and not absolutist) with the rule. I have not and would not claim that the Oxford comma is NEVER necessary. Absolutist claims, like those above, are not defensible in practice. There are clear, easy examples when that additional comma is superfluous for clarity (and I gave examples). I know of what I speak. It is my profession. I have to make these judgments daily (when school is in session).

    Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk
    "Rubbish" quoted E o C's comment and wasn't directed to or at you.

    I also have some experience with "models of clarity," having litigated throughout my career what various writers thought was perfectly clear. Including the dreaded "and/or."
    I don't know who you are referring to as "you", but if it's me, I certainly wasn't offended. Because he (TS, I mean) was right.

    In any case, there is something else to consider besides clarity, and that is how something reads. The example that TS gave, like most sentences without the comma, is somewhat jarring. Perhaps it's my mild autism, but I'm probably not the only one who is stopped in my tracks and irritated when I see such a sentence. Is the writer completely unconcerned about such an effect? Perhaps they're not sensitive to it. In any case, I don't like it, and subsequently choose to not do it myself.
    This is a good question. There was a time, many decades ago when school age children were taught to write as they would speak. Punctuation, we were taught, was not only grammatical, but expressive. Commas for instance, were used to separate clauses, but also to 'meter' for expression by indicating a pause for emphasis. I don't know if this is what is being taught now, or if it has been in the last 50 years or so.

    Our language and how it is used has changed -- and it will continue to evolve.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chemyst View Post
    I am intrigued by your envelope Chemyst, being interested in postal ephemera, this is a letter mailed in 1941 in Harpenden, Hertfordshire, England, a town I know very well, sent to North America by airmail and opened by a security service and resealed. Would you think that this private letter was opened by security in the US or prior to leaving England and do you know why there is no address and yet the envelope has been franked?

    I take your point - there is no such thing as a truly Private Messages even by snail mail.
    At a guess, it was most likely opened before it left England. The US was not in the war until December 1941 and had no need for wartime censorship security.

    Coincidentally, My grandfather, a Sergeant in a Highland regiment served as a censor after he was severely wounded on the Somme in 1916. My sister and I have original copies of photos with 'Passed for publication' stamped over his signature.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    . ....Commas for instance, were used to separate clauses, but also to 'meter' for expression by indicating a pause for emphasis. I don't know if this is what is being taught now, or if it has been in the last 50 years or so.
    No, this is not a comma usage rule. Expressive pauses in speaking may come where a comma or other punctuation mark is, but one should not put a comma in to indicate a rhetorical pause. Punctuation use is based on logical syntactical relationships (nearly entirely) and not on emphasis in vocalization (except, of course, the exclamation point or question mark).



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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    . ....Commas for instance, were used to separate clauses, but also to 'meter' for expression by indicating a pause for emphasis. I don't know if this is what is being taught now, or if it has been in the last 50 years or so.
    No, this is not a comma usage rule. Expressive pauses in speaking may come where a comma or other punctuation mark is, but one should not put a comma in to indicate a rhetorical pause. Punctuation use is based on logical syntactical relationships (nearly entirely) and not on emphasis in vocalization (except, of course, the exclamation point or question mark).



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    No argument, and my comment referred to what was taught long ago time and in a far away place.

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    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    . ....Commas for instance, were used to separate clauses, but also to 'meter' for expression by indicating a pause for emphasis. I don't know if this is what is being taught now, or if it has been in the last 50 years or so.
    No, this is not a comma usage rule. Expressive pauses in speaking may come where a comma or other punctuation mark is, but one should not put a comma in to indicate a rhetorical pause. Punctuation use is based on logical syntactical relationships (nearly entirely) and not on emphasis in vocalization (except, of course, the exclamation point or question mark).
    Try telling that to a poet.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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  18. #135
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Try telling that to a poet.
    The rules are moot if your artistic license is paid up.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    . ....Commas for instance, were used to separate clauses, but also to 'meter' for expression by indicating a pause for emphasis. I don't know if this is what is being taught now, or if it has been in the last 50 years or so.
    No, this is not a comma usage rule. Expressive pauses in speaking may come where a comma or other punctuation mark is, but one should not put a comma in to indicate a rhetorical pause. Punctuation use is based on logical syntactical relationships (nearly entirely) and not on emphasis in vocalization (except, of course, the exclamation point or question mark).
    Try telling that to a poet.
    That's hilarious.

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