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Thread: Private Messages

  1. #81
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I've been reading a few things about it and found that it's accepted and regularly used especially in situations when you don't know or need to know the gender applicable pronoun.
    As far as Eric, the owner/administrator is concerned, he is known as Eric and male so respectfully I would still refer to him as he/his/him.
    Chrissy, I was speaking broadly, not connected to any specific examples.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Chrissy, I was speaking broadly, not connected to any specific examples.
    Yes, got that.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Review Blog: inkyfountainpens

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Use “they” as a generic third-person singular pronoun to refer to a person whose gender is unknown or irrelevant to the context of the usage.

    From the American Psychological Association (APA) guide on style and grammar. [note, I work in academic research so have a tendency to use this kind of styling]
    I used 'they' under the second emphasised bit above.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    No, I don't 'feel' you whatever that is supposed to mean.

    I actually agree with what you are saying, and I am not suggesting that neither we nor our language remain static. No hyperbole is intended. I am only offering food for thought here, specifically, '... Chesterton pointed out about a century ago, is not always good. There is some virtue in retaining tradition, and yes Chesterton said that as well. Some of seek to retain some of our language's traditions if only to make the wisdom and the words of our earlier writers accessible. ...
    Right, and my response to this food for thought was to say that this sounds hyperbolic, even if you aren't intending it. The only change we have been discussing here is the expansion of the use of the third person plural pronoun and, as has been pointed out by others, only in two narrow situations. Nothing is "lost," only gained. We'll, I suppose that patriarchy takes a bit of a slap, and binary gender purists. But neither of those are losses, for me.



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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Thank you for the explanations. I was aware of the difference between the difference between the descriptive and proscriptive camps of grammar. It remains odd to me that the APA prefers to force a plural word into a singular hole to accommodate writers who are unable to structure a sentence to avoid he/she entirely.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    No, I don't 'feel' you whatever that is supposed to mean.

    I actually agree with what you are saying,...
    So, you feel me. That's what the phrase means. I was making a (weak) point about language use and change. English actually has gained its strength from the degree to which it has been willing to change and absorb influences from around the world. I teach grammar; it is part of my daily professional existence. As this kind of "insider," I have come to see the history of this pursuit (the formalization of rules and standards) with suspicion: there has been a strong element academic, social, and professional elitism behind the push for standardization of language usage rules, in both speaking and writing. It's like the history of handwriting: there came a point when the upper middle class wanted access to elite status and thus embraced and codified things like grammar and penmanship in order to make clearer one of the doors of access to legitimacy. Humans do like to segregate and form hierarchies of value, don't we? In groups, out groups. The sophisticates and the rubes. Our rules go far beyond basic clarity of expression (especially in our speaking). These rules have other additional purposes, and I think that it is good to be wary of them.

    And yes, this produces some cognitive dissonance for me in my job. But what else is new.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    For me as non native speaker this is a very academic question (where I canˋt participate anyway).

    But I‘m quite surprised that so many give a single little word so much attention to start a huge and passionate discussion.

    Personally I donˋt think that I would have written a comment assuming the text would have been written in German (as I said I‘m not qualified for English).


    Ok.... so now please feel free to fillet my insufficient English grammar. (I‘m happy to entertain you )

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    No, I don't 'feel' you whatever that is supposed to mean.

    I actually agree with what you are saying, and I am not suggesting that neither we nor our language remain static. No hyperbole is intended. I am only offering food for thought here, specifically, '... Chesterton pointed out about a century ago, is not always good. There is some virtue in retaining tradition, and yes Chesterton said that as well. Some of seek to retain some of our language's traditions if only to make the wisdom and the words of our earlier writers accessible. ...
    Right, and my response to this food for thought was to say that this sounds hyperbolic, even if you aren't intending it. The only change we have been discussing here is the expansion of the use of the third person plural pronoun and, as has been pointed out by others, only in two narrow situations. Nothing is "lost," only gained. We'll, I suppose that patriarchy takes a bit of a slap, and binary gender purists. But neither of those are losses, for me.



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    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    No, I don't 'feel' you whatever that is supposed to mean.

    I actually agree with what you are saying,...
    So, you feel me. That's what the phrase means. I was making a (weak) point about language use and change. English actually has gained its strength from the degree to which it has been willing to change and absorb influences from around the world. I teach grammar; it is part of my daily professional existence. As this kind of "insider," I have come to see the history of this pursuit (the formalization of rules and standards) with suspicion: there has been a strong element academic, social, and professional elitism behind the push for standardization of language usage rules, in both speaking and writing. It's like the history of handwriting: there came a point when the upper middle class wanted access to elite status and thus embraced and codified things like grammar and penmanship in order to make clearer one of the doors of access to legitimacy. Humans do like to segregate and form hierarchies of value, don't we? In groups, out groups. The sophisticates and the rubes. Our rules go far beyond basic clarity of expression (especially in our speaking). These rules have other additional purposes, and I think that it is good to be wary of them.

    And yes, this produces some cognitive dissonance for me in my job. But what else is new.
    Thank you both. This is exactly the kind of discussion I intended to foster. Encouraging discussion and the sharing of perspectives is something my father taught me. He encouraged open-mindedness and one being receptive to the opinions, knowledge, and perspectives of others, and that asking a question or making a statement that would require an explanatory answer or challenge was a good way to achieve dialogue. As he taught me, it is one way to learn.


    So, shall we discuss the 'Oxford comma' ? Use it or lose it?

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    ... So, shall we discuss the 'Oxford comma' ? Use it or lose it?
    Maybe another thread.

    But while I'm here I'll say that it is logically wrong to omit it. Those who advocate or demand omitting it are deliberately sabotaging clear and proper English in order to satisfy their own irrational fetish.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    ... So, shall we discuss the 'Oxford comma' ? Use it or lose it?
    Maybe another thread.

    But while I'm here I'll say that it is logically wrong to omit it. Those who advocate or demand omitting it are deliberately sabotaging clear and proper English in order to satisfy their own irrational fetish.
    What have you got against sabotage and/or fetishes? I can think of several poets and writers whose high art can be exactly described this way. Conventionality is mostly for the, well, conventional.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Omitting the serial comma only ever increases ambiguity. Far from being a pedant's fetish, it is a marker of clarity and precision.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Omitting the serial comma only ever increases ambiguity. Far from being a pedant's fetish, it is a marker of clarity and precision.
    And what is wrong with some ambiguity from time to time? Clarity also can be its own fetish, when adhered to with a fervor. This reminds me of the criticism of Monet when he would forgo traditional outlines of subjects.

    The fact that it's called the Oxford Comma might clue us in to something.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Thank you for the explanations. I was aware of the difference between the difference between the descriptive and proscriptive camps of grammar. It remains odd to me that the APA prefers to force a plural word into a singular hole to accommodate writers who are unable to structure a sentence to avoid he/she entirely.
    Rubbish. It is simple to structure a sentence to include he/she, but it is totally unnecessary under the guidelines given by APA, and it is quite obvious why this is so.


    Note: APA does not state that he/she cannot be used, only that it is context driven rather than a slavish rule. Does this additional information (the he/she part) have any value? If I was writing a police report about an incident then it would be more pertinent to include he/she as it is relevant information, as an example.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; August 7th, 2020 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Ambiguity when it is intentional is fine, ie., in creative writing. But generally, clarity is preferrable when you are communicating, or attempting to.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Oh, totally agree. It always disappoints me when a novelist, poet, artist, film maker etc, leaves nothing to the imagination. In my opinion, in the creative arts, engaging the imagination is key.


    Ambiguity in the academic field (which is all I can really speak to) is usually - but not always - weeded out during peer review. Not a perfect system, but it works well enough.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Thank you for the explanations. I was aware of the difference between the difference between the descriptive and proscriptive camps of grammar. It remains odd to me that the APA prefers to force a plural word into a singular hole to accommodate writers who are unable to structure a sentence to avoid he/she entirely.
    Rubbish. It is simple to structure a sentence to include he/she, but it is totally unnecessary under the guidelines given by APA, and it is quite obvious why this is so.


    Note: APA does not state that he/she cannot be used, only that it is context driven rather than a slavish rule. Does this additional information (the he/she part) have any value? If I was writing a police report about an incident then it would be more pertinent to include he/she as it is relevant information, as an example.

    Three thoughts:

    First, I agree -- as I said earlier -- that 'they' allows for the non-binary, and is therefore more choice-worthy in our politically correct society while 'he/she' does not.

    Second, and completely unrelated to earlier discussion, but, your comment, 'If I was writing a police report about an incident then it would be more pertinent to include he/she as it is relevant information, ...' Bring up the question of usage when demographics; gender especially, is being considered such as a research paper in which a individual is being discussed. That, I would think, becomes an either or choice.

    Third, This is what happens when an abstract thinker with a MENSA IQ has spent too much time in self-isolation. He gets bored with his own company, gets on the internet, and annoys people with 'free range' drivel.

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    Default Re: Private Messages



    In a human research paper, demographic information should always be given. In population based studies participants are usually broken down along the usual axes of sex, age, ethnicity and so on. Firstly to describe the population, and secondly to help explain statistical comparisons if they are being made. Individuals are more likely to be referenced directly in case studies or qualitative research. That's obviously not an exhaustive list, just the more commonly seen study types - at least in my experience so far.


    An academic writer should always consider what information needs to be conveyed, as opposed to trying to shoehorn everything in. Many journals impose word limits too, which may lead to some brutal editing!

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    I asked someone who is a long term member for their opinion on a post that I had read on here, I sent a private message. Their answer was they did not trust private message and they would not answer, they said that it was too easy to pass a message round, messages were not private.

    This cannot be right surely, it does not say very much for people.
    That person's reply likely has much to do with his or her own behavior on FPGeeks (e.g., passive aggressive) and how he sees himself perceived. As mentioned above, nothing is truly private, but over-the-top paranoia from another is not something you ought to embrace. Take the cue, don't interact with him and leave him be.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    As mentioned above, nothing is truly private, but over-the-top paranoia from another is not something you ought to embrace. Take the cue, don't interact with him and leave him be.
    Good all-weather advice.

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    Default Re: Private Messages

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    I asked someone who is a long term member for their opinion on a post that I had read on here, I sent a private message. Their answer was they did not trust private message and they would not answer, they said that it was too easy to pass a message round, messages were not private.

    This cannot be right surely, it does not say very much for people.
    That person's reply likely has much to do with his or her own behavior on FPGeeks (e.g., passive aggressive) and how he sees himself perceived. As mentioned above, nothing is truly private, but over-the-top paranoia from another is not something you ought to embrace. Take the cue, don't interact with him and leave him be.
    Thank you, good advice.

    By an odd coincidence, I used 'they' in the question, you have referred to the person as a man.

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