Need community input to make this forum successful

[Deb]

[This conversation started from this thread. -dannzeman]

The problem with these feedback posts is that they are usually one-sided, like this one. As such, they're of limited benefit to the rest of us. From what you've written, you've decided that there's no benefit in contacting the repairer. That might not be the wisest choice for yourself, but equally importantly Mr Crook has not been made aware of your dissatisfaction and given an opportunity to put it right or explain himself. Further, I think that if you're going to traduce someone's reputation here, the decent thing to do is make them aware that you're doing so, so that they have the opportunity to reply. That way, we'll at least be in a position to make our minds up about the rights and wrongs of the matter.

[dannzeman]

The problem with these feedback posts is that they are usually one-sided, like this one. As such, they're of limited benefit to the rest of us. From what you've written, you've decided that there's no benefit in contacting the repairer. That might not be the wisest choice for yourself, but equally importantly Mr Crook has not been made aware of your dissatisfaction and given an opportunity to put it right or explain himself. Further, I think that if you're going to traduce someone's reputation here, the decent thing to do is make them aware that you're doing so, so that they have the opportunity to reply. That way, we'll at least be in a position to make our minds up about the rights and wrongs of the matter.

Actually, Deb, if you had bothered to read the rules of this forum you'd know that we contact the other person in situations like this to give them a chance to respond. We also ask that only the facts are presented, which Flounder has done an excellent job of doing. But instead of repeating all the rules, I'll just link it here so you can read it for yourself.

[Deb]

Thank you very much. I have read the rules now. It wasn't that I hadn't bothered, as you rather challengingly choose to put it, it was rather that I was unaware there was a necessity, being a respondent rather than a poster. Having seen this type of one-sided feedback on other groups for years, I assumed that this was yet another instance. Mea culpa. They are excellent rules if they work. Time will tell.

Try to keep your tendency to unnecessary unpleasantness in check. I though I was back in FPN for a moment there.

[Jon Szanto]

I would look forward to two specific elements to make this thread worth anything at all to me:

1. A response from the repair person
2. Reasoning behind Flounder's decision to choose this person to do the work in the first place.

Addendum: Dan, I think Deb has a point - we *all* have to be ever-vigilant as to how we phrase things, because text-on-screen very frequently does not give the true tone of our statements. It is easy to overlook items such as reading all the sub-rules and notations about the posting regimens of various fora, and a reminder is all that is needed. For instance, I had *no idea* that you (FPG) contact 2nd parties in situations like this. I'll be honest: I just like the way you guys run FPG, and so I haven't read each and every rule, I just have a gut feeling you are running this in a good way.

So, anyway, that is how my brain is working this morning. Only partially caffeinated, so I'll check back later today...

[Laura N]

I would look forward to two specific elements to make this thread worth anything at all to me:

1. A response from the repair person
2. Reasoning behind Flounder's decision to choose this person to do the work in the first place.

Addendum: Dan, I think Deb has a point - we *all* have to be ever-vigilant as to how we phrase things, because text-on-screen very frequently does not give the true tone of our statements. It is easy to overlook items such as reading all the sub-rules and notations about the posting regimens of various fora, and a reminder is all that is needed. For instance, I had *no idea* that you (FPG) contact 2nd parties in situations like this. I'll be honest: I just like the way you guys run FPG, and so I haven't read each and every rule, I just have a gut feeling you are running this in a good way.

So, anyway, that is how my brain is working this morning. Only partially caffeinated, so I'll check back later today...

I agree with this totally.

I appreciate the original post. And I appreciate Deb's reminder to keep in mind that there are often two sides to every story. However, that said, and not referring to Deb, I have been in situations where highly lauded eBay sellers or online fountain pen dealers have in fact provided terrible service, and it is disheartening when third parties jump in to defend the seller/repairer by implying that the customer must have been at fault. So it's a fine line. I think the best thing to do is to assume that people are telling the truth, and that one's own particular experience does not mean that others will have the identical experience.

[dannzeman]

... It wasn't that I hadn't bothered...it was rather that I was unaware there was a necessity, being a respondent rather than a poster.

It's the responsibility of the user to read the rules of any forum before posting, whether responding to or creating a post. This isn't a foreign concept.

...Try to keep your tendency to unnecessary unpleasantness in check. I though I was back in FPN for a moment there.

Ha! Good one! It's not like I threatened to ban you. Forgive me (or not) if I fail to sugar coat my comments, but if you had read the rules prior to posting it would have saved you from having to type half your response to Flounder and saved me from having to respond at all.

I would look forward to two specific elements to make this thread worth anything at all to me:

1. A response from the repair person

... I note that apart from this post there are two others dealing with poor service. In neither case has there been a response. So far, so bad.

However, I hope the repairer responds in this case and a mutually satisfactory solution can be found.

Jon, Deb, I wholeheartedly agree that one sided posts are worthless. We make every attempt to contact the other party involved to try to get both sides presented, but we can't force them to respond. What should we do then?

Perhaps one way to make these threads more useful is to only allow the parties involved to comment?

We would very much like to make the Market Feedback forum successful and are interested in hearing suggestions. Maybe a new thread should be started to discuss this?

Addendum: Dan, I think Deb has a point - we *all* have to be ever-vigilant as to how we phrase things, because text-on-screen very frequently does not give the true tone of our statements. It is easy to overlook items such as reading all the sub-rules and notations about the posting regimens of various fora, and a reminder is all that is needed. For instance, I had *no idea* that you (FPG) contact 2nd parties in situations like this. I'll be honest: I just like the way you guys run FPG, and so I haven't read each and every rule, I just have a gut feeling you are running this in a good way.

So, anyway, that is how my brain is working this morning. Only partially caffeinated, so I'll check back later today...

Jon, as easy as it might be to overlook a stickied post containing the rules, I don't think that makes for an acceptable excuse. We don't have have a lot of rules here, actually this sub-forum is the only one with rules in which you can get suspended or banned. I don't think it's too much to expect users to know the rules of the communities they participate in.

[Deb]

Have it your way, if you must, dannzeman. A polite indication would have sufficed but you chose to be unnecessarily unpleasant. That's your privilege. All power corrupts and even the teeny bit of power a board admin has corrupts a teeny bit. The first thing to go is civility.

As regards the Market Feedback Forum; I've never seen it work well. All's well so long as it's complimentary, but when someone has a real complaint either the fireworks start or an unanswered calumny is left to damn someone's reputation eternally. You ask in the rules that people keep their comments subjective - I suspect you mean objective - but objectivity flies out the window in most instances when a person feels they have been wronged. I think it is greatly to Flounder's credit that he kept his comments cool and objective, but in my experience that's the exception.

I suspect that few people respond because by time it comes to their attention they're already presented with a barrage of indignant posts, the posters having only heard one side of the story. It quickly goes downhill, as is evidenced by the poster above who uploaded a picture of Mr Crook with a personal comment. Lest I be misapprehended, I hold no brief Peter Crook. I've never dealt with him nor corresponded with him and I'm only aware of him as one of the authors of Onoto Pen Repair. I just think everyone should have a fair crack of the whip and despite your best efforts I don't think I'm seeing it here.

[dannzeman]

As regards the Market Feedback Forum; I've never seen it work well. All's well so long as it's complimentary, but when someone has a real complaint either the fireworks start or an unanswered calumny is left to damn someone's reputation eternally. You ask in the rules that people keep their comments subjective - I suspect you mean objective - but objectivity flies out the window in most instances when a person feels they have been wronged.

Yes, you're right, I meant objective. It's been updated.

I think the rules state very clearly to present the facts and not make libelous statements. Are they unclear? Do they need to be rewritten?

I suspect that few people respond because by time it comes to their attention they're already presented with a barrage of indignant posts, the posters having only heard one side of the story. It quickly goes downhill, as is evidenced by the poster above who uploaded a picture of Mr Crook with a personal comment. Lest I be misapprehended, I hold no brief Peter Crook. I've never dealt with him nor corresponded with him and I'm only aware of him as one of the authors of Onoto Pen Repair. I just think everyone should have a fair crack of the whip and despite your best efforts I don't think I'm seeing it here.

So, again, I ask, what should we do? Would giving permission to post to only the parties involved make the thread/forum more welcoming by preventing the "barrage of indignant posts"?

Do you think we should just remove the Market Feedback forum all together? What happens when someone does have a bad experience? How do they make other people aware of the situation?

[Jon Szanto]

Jon, as easy as it might be to overlook a stickied post containing the rules, I don't think that makes for an acceptable excuse. We don't have have a lot of rules here, actually this sub-forum is the only one with rules in which you can get suspended or banned. I don't think it's too much to expect users to know the rules of the communities they participate in.

Ok, Dan, here is The Deal:

I tend to interact with every forum I'm on at the moment in one particular way: I look at the new posts ("What's New" here at FPG, other places similar, some vbb's use an add-on called iSpy). The actual bookmark link for FPG in my browser takes me directly there. I can't even remember the last time I looked at the standard Forum pages, either the main one or any sub-page. As such, I have probably missed pinned rules, and the like.

So, having said that, I hope you can at least give the benefit of the doubt when drawing our attention to a particular that we might have missed. I've adminned and modded forums before, going back to <cough, cough> BBS days. It is no fun having to police. In the instance I decided to get involved in, I have to say I thought it was just a bit curt to call out Deb in that manner. If it were me, I would have just given a reminder (and, naturally, I'll be going over all those rules, etc, later this evening to be up to snuff). I've (hopefully) tried to be a positive member of the community, and really do consider this my main pen forum, with FPB for vintage/arcana areas also. I want to think we can all deal with each other, even during breaches of protocol, with mutual respect. The bottom line for me: I may not have read any particular rules for this sub-forum, but not because I "didn't bother", but because it didn't dawn on me to go check before I started reading the thread. It really is that simple, and non-malicious and non-lazy.

I'm going to have to run off to work soon, but I'd like to see a good discussion on market feedback. It isn't going to be easy, but there is the opportunity to make something good happen. For that, and many other things, we are grateful to you guys for FPG and it's forums!

[tandaina]

Jon, as easy as it might be to overlook a stickied post containing the rules, I don't think that makes for an acceptable excuse. We don't have have a lot of rules here, actually this sub-forum is the only one with rules in which you can get suspended or banned. I don't think it's too much to expect users to know the rules of the communities they participate in.

Ok, Dan, here is The Deal:

I tend to interact with every forum I'm on at the moment in one particular way: I look at the new posts ("What's New" here at FPG, other places similar, some vbb's use an add-on called iSpy). The actual bookmark link for FPG in my browser takes me directly there. I can't even remember the last time I looked at the standard Forum pages, either the main one or any sub-page. As such, I have probably missed pinned rules, and the like.

I'm going to have to run off to work soon, but I'd like to see a good discussion on market feedback. It isn't going to be easy, but there is the opportunity to make something good happen. For that, and many other things, we are grateful to you guys for FPG and it's forums!

Yup, me too. I mostly read on my phone on the mobile app (Tappatalk), I never leave the "New Posts" page of that app. I haven't a clue what sub-forums posts are even IN, and certainly not what sticky posts are in that forum. I'm just going from thread to thread. Sticky rules make sense for original posters, for the rest I'd hope the general rule of "don't be a jerk" would be sufficient.

And I think it really is important to realize MOST of us are well intentioned and if we've broken a rule it isn't out of malice and a polite reminder of the rules will likely lead to apology. But there really isn't a reason to be short with posters unless they are obviously ignoring requests to behave ourselves.

Market feedback is important to me. What makes sense to me is this:

1. It will always be one sided and he said she said. That's sort of how this works and so everyone reading should enter with that understanding.
2. Posters should be encouraged to contact the vendor/whoever FIRST and only report on their experience after the original party has had their chance to make things right.
3. Personal attacks should be avoided and moderated if necessary. Stick to the facts (as you see them) and leave room for the possibility of things being made right or an agreement being come to, or that you are just plain in the wrong.

We have to put a LOT of trust in the people we send our (obviously precious to us) pens off to. Being able to share our experiences with others is important I think.

[spotted and speckled]

I just read the rules and both threads. Wondering if perhaps, in future instances, the person who feels wronged should not send the entire post (as it would be published) to the person who did the offending work 24-48 hours before publishing the post, and telling the offender where & when it will be published ? Flounder's original post is a very good example.

[Deb]

Do you think we should just remove the Market Feedback forum all together? What happens when someone does have a bad experience? How do they make other people aware of the situation?

I think we need to look at what can be achieved and what we actually do achieve. Ideally, we would want some sort of conciliation which enables both parties to clear the air, come to an agreement about faults and mistakes, make a financial settlement should that be necessary and bring the matter to a close. That way, in what I fear may be an ideal world and not the real one, reputations are not butchered and something approaching justice is established. What's happening here, though, is a debate in which, at least in the initial stages, the complainer holds all the aces and an uncompromising "take no prisoners" debate ensues. What will we have at the end? One party will have a seriously damaged reputation, justly or otherwise (we are in a poor position to tell) and the other party will be in the position where no repairer will risk touching his pens. No-one wins. No-one's lot is improved. In fact, everyone's worse off.

How do we arrive at a means of providing the first outcome rather than the second? That's not easy. Society has had to develop civil courts and tribunals because of the difficulty of deciding between contending parties. We're unlikely to develop a comparable system off the cuff here. I'm very close to saying, "Yes, just remove the Market Feedback Forum." That may in the end be the best thing to do if we cannot do better than pen discussion boards have done with this issue up to now. On the other hand, I'm very aware that there's poor workmanship and inequitable deals going on out there and it would be to all our benefit if there was a good way of reaching agreement over them, or at least making the membership aware of things that are clearly and unequivocally wrong. How to do that? Frankly, it seems a bit too ambitious to me, but spotted and speckled's post might be a starting point. It would at least have the two parties talking to each other, rather than attempting to find common ground in the midst of a noisy public debate.

[picautomaton]

Ok, please explain the jewel that was swopped out with another, explain the scratches, explain the parts returned touching and scraping each other. No Debs the poster did the correct thing and gave us feedback on the shenanigans of a dodgy shop. Passion for pens is what I like to see and read about.

[Jon Szanto]

Ok, please explain the jewel that was swopped out with another, explain the scratches, explain the parts returned touching and scraping each other. No Debs the poster did the correct thing and gave us feedback on the shenanigans of a dodgy shop. Passion for pens is what I like to see and read about.

This really belongs in the initial thread, but...

Just how are *we* to consider one set of "facts" over another? Do we see "before" pictures without the scratches? Etc, etc. All of these are the problems that must be addressed if this concept of a Market Feedback forum is to become a transparent and valid service to the pen community. We are, as a group, going to have to work very hard to avoid the "Are you still beating your wife?" syndrome.

[Deb]

Ok, please explain the jewel that was swopped out with another, explain the scratches, explain the parts returned touching and scraping each other. No Debs the poster did the correct thing and gave us feedback on the shenanigans of a dodgy shop. Passion for pens is what I like to see and read about.

It's good to see that you can take a nice, balanced view of things. I love the masterly way you sift through the evidence before coming to a conclusion.

[Tony Rex]

Shame that Mr. Crook refused to tell his side. qui tacet consentire...

And my feedback as part of the community is:

I like Market Feedback the way it is. Thanks.

[Deb]

Shame that Mr. Crook refused to tell his side. qui tacet consentire...

Wrong thread. Try the other one.

[HughC]

We all make mistakes, we all stuff at times...pen repairers are no exception and we all expect outcomes that aren't achievable all times. I make plenty of mistakes in my business...but they generally only affect my business and don't impact on any one else....I bet even Jon hits the "wrong" drum on rare occasions . Accepting you've made a mistake is the hard part as is accepting that someone else hasn't even when you think they have !! The method used here is as good as any, unpleasant issues are never easy but this does make the best of a "bad situation" and encourages all parties to openly discuss the issues. I see little need for change.

Regards
Hugh

[picautomaton]

Ok, please explain the jewel that was swopped out with another, explain the scratches, explain the parts returned touching and scraping each other. No Debs the poster did the correct thing and gave us feedback on the shenanigans of a dodgy shop. Passion for pens is what I like to see and read about.

It's good to see that you can take a nice, balanced view of things. I love the masterly way you sift through the evidence before coming to a conclusion.

I tend to consider myself more selectively permeable -

[manoeuver]

Dan is allowed to be cranky, he's got an infant at home. Cut the man some slack.

bitchfest posts are well worth skipping in any case.