Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

[Jon Szanto]

Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive deciisions. Make him prove his point.

For example is the Lamy 2000 a better pen that the Safari and why. Some might say it looks better. While that's all well and good, looking better does not render a better writtng tool.

These are weak assertions. A person may choose to focus on function uber alles if one wants to, and I'll be of good social grace and not make fun of that stance. But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game. It's as if "hey, it has 4 wheels, and an engine and a steering wheel, why would you want anything that looks nice or that you enjoy driving around in? Isn't the point just to get in, get there and nothing else?"

These are absurd arguments. A fountain pen, like so many other objects in our lives, can occupy many places in our interest.

Lastly, as to the Lamy example: you ask which is a better pen, and you suggest the 2K looks better. If one assumes that the pen writes at least as well as the Safari, then you've just lost the argument: they both function well as writing instruments, and one looks better. And holds more ink. And doesn't have a kindergarten tripod grip. Etc. Etc.

Which is why I made no specific examples - they are too easy to make. There is nothing at all to justify. Nothing.

[An old bloke]

Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive deciisions. Make him prove his point.

For example is the Lamy 2000 a better pen that the Safari and why. Some might say it looks better. While that's all well and good, looking better does not render a better writtng tool.

These are weak assertions. A person may choose to focus on function uber alles if one wants to, and I'll be of good social grace and not make fun of that stance. But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game. It's as if "hey, it has 4 wheels, and an engine and a steering wheel, why would you want anything that looks nice or that you enjoy driving around in? Isn't the point just to get in, get there and nothing else?"

These are absurd arguments. A fountain pen, like so many other objects in our lives, can occupy many places in our interest.

Lastly, as to the Lamy example: you ask which is a better pen, and you suggest the 2K looks better. If one assumes that the pen writes at least as well as the Safari, then you've just lost the argument: they both function well as writing instruments, and one looks better. And holds more ink. And doesn't have a kindergarten tripod grip. Etc. Etc.

Which is why I made no specific examples - they are too easy to make. There is nothing at all to justify. Nothing.

I don't think anyone was saying that the only thing of importance is that a pen writes. While the choice of 'justify' may not have been the best, I took, 'Don't rush to agree since the owner of the truism perhaps is attempting to justify his expensive decisions. Make him prove his point.', to mean was that one who says, 'It's expensive so it is better.', should be able to articulate why -- just as in your car purchasing analogy, one should be able to explain why one car is better than another.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game.

The statement is patently incorrect, and there are endless examples that one can find if one thinks even for moment about it.

Furthermore, in addition to the examples, out here in the real world a lot of people have to make decisions in just that way.

And consider how often we judge other people on one element and one element only. It's very common.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

After reading up on the Bauhaus philosophy, I came to appreciate function is more important than form, but one need not sacrifice one for the other with some designs.

One of the interesting things about the Staatliches Bauhaus is how it failed to respect the aesthetic of the built environment or the local population.

I like Bauhaus architecture, but extra care is needed when deciding where to place it. In other words, in the real world large population centres, form requires greater emphasis.

[Jon Szanto]

I don't think anyone was saying that the only thing of importance is that a pen writes.

Mr. Naill has espoused that viewpoint repeatedly in a number of discussions. I have no issue with the viewpoint that a pen serves only one function, which is to write well, though I happen to believe that a pen can encompass more elements beyond mere function. Mr. Naill seems to not be ok with anyone having interest in pens beyond the base function. The pen world is wide; I've never quite understood why some people want everyone to engage in the exact same pen experience.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I don't think anyone was saying that the only thing of importance is that a pen writes.

Mr. Naill has espoused that viewpoint repeatedly in a number of discussions. I have no issue with the viewpoint that a pen serves only one function, which is to write well, though I happen to believe that a pen can encompass more elements beyond mere function. Mr. Naill seems to not be ok with anyone having interest in pens beyond the base function. The pen world is wide; I've never quite understood why some people want everyone to engage in the exact same pen experience.

Trying to reconcile the bolded part above with the quote below is challenging.

But anyone who judges an object on one element and one element only has already lost the game. - Jon Szanto

[Chuck Naill]

I was addressing Mr. Szanto's opinion.

"When you do your homework, know the terrain, and (after time) have a few financial bruises as part of the learning curve, you find that when you buy the right pen that costs a bit more, you get a return on your investment that shows value over a very long time... perhaps a lifetime. In this instance, the terms investment and value relate specifically to the owner's experience, not anything as mundane as resale, and that experience includes elements beyond mere function.

The only truism I can come up with is that a good cheap pen is rarely as good an investment as a good "more expensive" pen.

First, one does not need to be "bruised" to learn. And, if you are getting bruised by expensive pens, the argument fails.
Secondly a more expensive pen does not necessarily produce a better experience. For proof of this, consider the many threads here discussing leaking and cracking of expensive pens.

Lastly, I am indirectly replying to a person who is finding out what they like in a pen. Suggesting they spend more money in an attempt to get there is not good advice.

[Detman101]

Totally understand what you mean Chuck.
The pen in this thread, for example...
https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...ens-Yamimaki-e
It's expensive, it's pretty, but ultimately...it's useless beyond the ability to write and make pretentious people drool.
But if that's what gets you off...it's a great pen. Buy three.

For me...my index finger has the same ability with enough blood drawn...and a lot more usefulness outside of writing.
That pen doesn't show up on my radar, along with a world of other pens like it.
The Conid Bulkfiller, FWI - Golden Armor and Penbbs-355 make me drool, however...and neither are particularly expensive comparatively.
All three have technical abilities that make them stand out in the crowd and get noticed.
I'm that way with people and most things in life, however. Something that's just "pretty" doesn't rate high...it has to function above the standard...or it's bypassed.

[Chuck Naill]

The Al Star tip was referred to as a "kindergarden tip". Are ergonomic designs only for the young/inexperienced, or those who haven't finished their "homework"? I think not, but it was a cheap lick comment to disparage a well made, prolitarian writing instrument. BTW, OP, I have been reading the 14k gold Lamy nib has some flex.

[penwash]

First, one does not need to be "bruised" to learn. And, if you are getting bruised by expensive pens, the argument fails.
Secondly a more expensive pen does not necessarily produce a better experience. For proof of this, consider the many threads here discussing leaking and cracking of expensive pens.

I am of course not Jon, but I also read his statement that you discussed above.

The way I read and understand his statement, the term "bruised" here is not the way you're bruised severely as in when your head had a painful encounter with the door (or door frame for you tall people). What I take from that is when you are further along in the hobby, you sometimes buy a pen that you thought you'd like, but when you actually have it in your hand, you don't love it. *But* you did learn what you don't like (the bruise), so you can be more specific and avoid that in the next pen you're getting.

I feel that his statement was spot on, and it fits the approach that makes a journey out of this hobby. You learn as you go, the longer you go, they more you learn, and hopefully having a lot of fun along the way.

Also, we are all talking about preferences and views and perspectives. I have seen you, and some other people who started not long ago with this hobby, and there are some things gathered from what you and others posted, that I would have done completely differently.

However, I also respect yours and others' individual way of thinking, and I am aware that my journey in this hobby is different than yours.

All I'm asking from those of you who just got started, is this: When you encounter (online or not) another pen person, who has been in this hobby longer than you have, the first perspective that you should employ in reading their statement is not that they are tearing down your principles and force you to do irrational thing (like spending thousands on pens without knowing why), rather, they are relaying the good and bad from their experiences, in hope that you will benefit from knowing those.

Lastly, I am indirectly replying to a person who is finding out what they like in a pen. Suggesting they spend more money in an attempt to get there is not good advice.

I don't see Jon (or anyone here) suggesting to blindly spend more money. What I see here is the invitation to be patient. To give ourselves more time in this hobby before drawing dramatic conclusions or making dramatic statements.

Why? Because there are literally thousands of things that can be experienced in this seemingly simple hobby, so with patience and time, we may come to appreciate things in this hobby that we used to think ridiculous when we just got started.

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you Penwash for your comments. Perhaps my interpretation was incorrect.

[Jon Szanto]

First, one does not need to be "bruised" to learn. And, if you are getting bruised by expensive pens, the argument fails.

I didn't think it needed delineating, but just to be clear: we don't live 100 years ago, where there were pen shops and pen departments (in department stores, etc) readily available. If we were, we could walk into a place and try out a bunch of pens and find just the right one (write one?) to use, a pen that was perfectly suited. No, we live at a time where many of the pen choices have to be made with intuition, reading and watching reviews, asking for advice and then putting out money and hoping we have made a good choice. My bruises (a term I chose) have been mild, and part of the learning curve. If I hadn't bought the odd not-so-apt pen here and there, I wouldn't have been able to refine my focus. Much younger people, with fewer financial resources to draw on, might reasonably be more impacted by a bad choice, but fortunately there are ways to offload them.

The fact remains that there is no way to know if you like the pen unless you try it, and to do so often involves and informed but still experimental purchase. Many have worked out, a few haven't. I think that is a perfectly valid approach, and not a failure in the least.

Secondly a more expensive pen does not necessarily produce a better experience. For proof of this, consider the many threads here discussing leaking and cracking of expensive pens.

No, this is on it's face weak and wrong: go back to my initial post, which started out specifically stating that there were both good and bad expensive pens. And then spend time on reddit, where the bulk of the pens are in the budget category, and look at the issues they present.

Suggesting they spend more money in an attempt to get there is not good advice.

Well, that's one opinion

*****

BTW, the tripod grip comment might have been ill-advised, but on any level it is still a bit of a "training-wheels" affect. My main issue with the implementation is the fact that the nib is always in the same orientation to the grip, which allows for no variance in rotation for the writer, and can impact the writing experience. A good example of this done better is the Parker 75, which allows the nib to rotate to accommodate the rolling of the pen in the grip, while still retaining the comfort - if desired - of the tripod grip.

[Jon Szanto]

Will, you are the best. Thank you for not only receiving my posts in the manner with which I intended them, but for giving me some backup and explaining them in a better way. I try to be clear but I know I do fail in that regard at times.

[Chuck Naill]

Jon, I have no need to wrangle. We probably do disagree on some level, but we do agree, perhaps, that we enjoy the hobby. Peace!!

[Jon Szanto]

Jon, I have no need to wrangle. We probably do disagree on some level, but we do agree, perhaps, that we enjoy the hobby. Peace!!

Indeed, Chuck! I am sorry, in that my personal style of trying to write ends up having cues that come off in the wrong light or manner at times. I never intend to slight, so we are completely good in my book! Any pen that is a joy in the person's hand is a wonderful and good thing!

Be well.

[Ray-VIgo]

If you feel you have to handpick a pen and nib, then attending a pen show is the best way to go. Eventually COVID will recede and the pen shows will start up again. It's worth a visit, if nothing else for the experience and to try stuff. If you are comfortable buying online, I would approach an established pen shop or vintage dealer and to explain your needs. Most try to be helpful. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, then you end up on eBay or elsewhere, but you're right that it might not turn out to be what you expect if you're buying on eBay "in the wild". Local antique shops are also an option, but can be hit or miss, depending on whether the person running the shop knows much about pens. Different people tolerate different risks, so it depends on the kind of buyer you are. The Waterman 52 suggestion is just a place to start in terms of a type and model that is accessible and of the "old school" variety of construction and nibs.

[Detman101]

If you feel you have to handpick a pen and nib, then attending a pen show is the best way to go. Eventually COVID will recede and the pen shows will start up again. It's worth a visit, if nothing else for the experience and to try stuff. If you are comfortable buying online, I would approach an established pen shop or vintage dealer and to explain your needs. Most try to be helpful. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, then you end up on eBay or elsewhere, but you're right that it might not turn out to be what you expect if you're buying on eBay "in the wild". Local antique shops are also an option, but can be hit or miss, depending on whether the person running the shop knows much about pens. Different people tolerate different risks, so it depends on the kind of buyer you are. The Waterman 52 suggestion is just a place to start in terms of a type and model that is accessible and of the "old school" variety of construction and nibs.

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much.
I'll casually keep an eye open for antique shops...and if life ever returns to normal, attend a pen show somewhere on the east coast.
Starting the search with the Waterman 52 and on...I've seen a few videos of that pen and they appear amazing!
I still can't believe that they had such amazing versions of celluloid back in the early 1900s!

[Chuck Naill]

If you feel you have to handpick a pen and nib, then attending a pen show is the best way to go. Eventually COVID will recede and the pen shows will start up again. It's worth a visit, if nothing else for the experience and to try stuff. If you are comfortable buying online, I would approach an established pen shop or vintage dealer and to explain your needs. Most try to be helpful. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, then you end up on eBay or elsewhere, but you're right that it might not turn out to be what you expect if you're buying on eBay "in the wild". Local antique shops are also an option, but can be hit or miss, depending on whether the person running the shop knows much about pens. Different people tolerate different risks, so it depends on the kind of buyer you are. The Waterman 52 suggestion is just a place to start in terms of a type and model that is accessible and of the "old school" variety of construction and nibs.

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much.
I'll casually keep an eye open for antique shops...and if life ever returns to normal, attend a pen show somewhere on the east coast.
Starting the search with the Waterman 52 and on...I've seen a few videos of that pen and they appear amazing!
I still can't believe that they had such amazing versions of celluloid back in the early 1900s!

You'd be amazed at the bone scales of a Sheffield Wade and Butch circa 1845. I have several pre 1890 staights with rubber scales that work just fine. I have an 1890 Hamilton 940 rail road watch that keeps great time. Those were the days of craftspeople.

[azkid]

I think 1900s pens would be hard rubber.

But yeah. The craftsmanship on those early pens with the gold overlay or the ornate gold bands is wild. Or the intricate designs on full hunter American pocket watches, particularly the lady's models, which I window shop so I can enjoy the myriad case designs (I have a 6s Elgin from 1897 with a rather nice case that still keeps decent time)

[FredRydr]

I, honestly, don't have the stamina to find "The Vintage Pen" on ebay. I also have a wife...so spending ungodly amounts of money on something as innocuous as a pen is outlawed pretty much....

In the past several months, Ray has posted on the FPGeeks classifieds very reasonably-priced late '30s Balances, as have I. Keep your eyes on the listings, though it is true that in 2020, modern pens seem to have filled the bulk of the ads there. Check out penwash's website for more nice writers from the '30s.