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Thread: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Angry Ignore: Issue resolved...I'm a noob newbie n008...lol

    *snip*


    "Standardization is not the standard...accept it and prepare for the work"



    If you made it this far, I'm sorry.
    I just have no one that will listen and even less people that could understand...

    Sorry.
    Last edited by Detman101; September 6th, 2020 at 03:15 PM. Reason: I understand more now...

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    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    It it just modern day greed and selfishness that makes pen manufacturers make parts that don't work in other pens?
    That was really, really common with older pen makers. There was no standardization and pretty much each maker had proprietary parts, so not sure what you're on about there.

    How is it that pens from the early 1900s were made so wonderfully
    Because we were upgrading from dip nibs. Everyone used fountain pens because they were the cutting edge of technology in writing.


    #5 is common and used by Fountain Pen Revolution across a number of their pens. Including finding ebonite feeds to fit said #5.

    Were you unaware of what the hardware would be on your pen that you custom ordered? That would seem like an oversight on their or your part.

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    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post

    That was really, really common with older pen makers. There was no standardization and pretty much each maker had proprietary parts, so not sure what you're on about there.

    How is it that pens from the early 1900s were made so wonderfully
    Because we were upgrading from dip nibs. Everyone used fountain pens because they were the cutting edge of technology in writing.


    #5 is common and used by Fountain Pen Revolution across a number of their pens. Including finding ebonite feeds to fit said #5.

    Were you unaware of what the hardware would be on your pen that you custom ordered? That would seem like an oversight on their or your part.
    It was DEFINITELY an oversight on my part as I was new and uninitiated to Fountain Pens.
    I had an idea of what I wanted...but didn't know how to get there. I saw a design I liked, and commissioned a build without any specifications due to my absolute ignorance.
    I take full blame...mea culpa.
    However, it would be less soul-rendingly regretful if I could blame someone else.
    This was my mistake...I did this.


    Thank you for listening AzJon. I appreciate it.

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    Senior Member Ron Z's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    I prefer vintage pens, but I also find that there are a lot of very well made modern pens. Maybe you just haven't found them yet.

    I find that the pens from around 1900 aren't all that wonderful. The dominant material was hard rubber, which was brittle and broke if dropped. Remember Parker's demonstration of the "unbreakable" Duofolds - dropping them from airplanes? There's a reason why there are fewer pens from the early part of the 20th century VS 1920 on.

    Vintage feeds are often really bad too. Some have just a wide slit to carry the ink, some have air channels that are cut too deep so the pen floods, or no collector fins. Oxidation can build up on a decades old mint hard rubber feed, and then the pen doesn't write until you clean it in a good surfactant. The modern feeds have far better ink flow regulation than many of the vintage feeds did, though some brands (looking at you Schmidt) are notorious for being balky.

    Standardized? Ever try to swap feeds between vintage Waterman, Parker and Sheaffer pens, let alone the off brands? Nibs, maybe. Clips, or caps? Not likely! Levers? Ha! Waterman levers were unique, as were Sheaffers. Parker didn't use them except for the Parkette. Its called avoiding patent suits. Sacs! Yeh, sacs were standard, unless you bought a Vacumatic, or a plunger filler, or piston filler. They're standardized only when the same manufacturer makes the part and then sells them to multiple manufacturers. Even then, there are tweaks to the design.

    The big difference between vintage and modern was that the vintage pens were made in such a way that they could be repaired. Today, you often simply replace the part. It's a way to lower production costs. But vintage pen makers did that too.
    Last edited by Ron Z; August 15th, 2020 at 06:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Oh! I didn't know that Ron Z!! Thank you!!
    I really don't know much at all, I'm very new to this...literally only 3-4 months experienced in fountain pens.
    I guess I don't know enough to really try doing all of the things I'm doing.
    Have to walk before I run I guess...
    I don't even understand how ebonite feeds work, much less why they work.
    I just wanted to swap one in because it says everywhere that the ink flow is better for flex writing.
    I know what the ink channel does, because that's what I widened/deepened on my plastic feed to get more ink flow...it worked wonderfully on the metal flex pen, but the reservoir/converter is way too small for extended writing.
    Literally, if I flex write for half a page...half the ink reservoir/converter is depleted...lol.

    I'm hoping I can get at least the same effect with the PENBBS-456 feed when it arrives.
    That should have enough ink available to write a few pages in Flex without having to refill.
    I just have to be sure to treat it carefully as it's plastic...If I'm going in the woods, I'll take the metal pen.
    Last edited by Detman101; August 14th, 2020 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Clarity...

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Concerning getting the PENBBS-456 modified to get the end results I desire....I just did the math based on the posted wait time of nib-meisters and pen repair-people that I've seen on the internet.

    PENBBS-456 order wait time from china: 3 months
    Nib-Meister/Repairman Installation of Flex-pen parts into PENBBS-456: 3-4 months (based on posted wait queues)

    Thats a total of 6 MONTHS!!
    Half a frickin year JUST to get a flex pen the way I need.

    Maybe buying the FPR flex pen built already is the way I need to go...
    Has anyone had good experience with the FPR pens?
    If the wait is not long I'd be fine with just buying one of those but everything I've seen says they have production issues.
    I'm leery of buying one from there only to have to return it.
    Do they test the pens out before they ship them?

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    I am so sorry for your experiences. I cannot tell, even though I read you OP again, what you want to do with a FP. Perhaps calligraphy??

    Anyway, Esterbrook made many nib types and they are still available. They do screw in and out. You have the choice of learning to restore them yourself or purchase them restored. They are not expensive at all and one pen could serve as a hold for many nibs. http://snyderfamily.com/current/estienibs.htm
    https://www.vintagepens.com/Esterbrook.shtml http://www.esterbrook.net/

    If you choose to restore them yourself, the new parts are availble.

    Another option is to consider dip pens. This is a wonderful experience and the ancient nbs are available. https://theesterbrookproject.com/INDEX.html

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Detman, ask around here: there are decades of accumulated pen knowledge.

    Give us an idea what you're looking for and we can point you in the right direction, or somebody probably already has a pen they could sell you.

    vintage-style flex in a modern pen isn't real easy to come by, but you've got way more options now than you did 5 years ago.

    Pierre Miller of Desiderata pens is hand-building pens designed around the G dip nib, subject to availability, some priced under $100.

    Noodlers is another company to check out, their flex nibs are pretty stiff but hackable (look for "ease my flex," an invention of our very own Pterodactylus)

    The most common #6 nib unit in use these days is the Jowo, so getting a pen that takes one of those is a strong start.

    The FPR ultraflex nibs are based on the Ease My Flex mod, I've tried one once and it worked pretty well.

    ok, good luck.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    There's a great website about fountain pen design, and how feeds, inks and all that work. It gets technical, but I at least find it to be very interesting. Worth taking time to read if you pan on tinkering with pens, and even if you don't plan on tinkering with pens.

    Fountain Pen Design.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by Detman101 View Post
    Concerning getting the PENBBS-456 modified to get the end results I desire....I just did the math based on the posted wait time of nib-meisters and pen repair-people that I've seen on the internet.

    PENBBS-456 order wait time from china: 3 months
    Nib-Meister/Repairman Installation of Flex-pen parts into PENBBS-456: 3-4 months (based on posted wait queues)

    Thats a total of 6 MONTHS!!
    Half a frickin year JUST to get a flex pen the way I need.

    Maybe buying the FPR flex pen built already is the way I need to go...
    Has anyone had good experience with the FPR pens?
    If the wait is not long I'd be fine with just buying one of those but everything I've seen says they have production issues.
    I'm leery of buying one from there only to have to return it.
    Do they test the pens out before they ship them?
    I have a couple of FPR pens - including a Himalaya v2 with UltraFlex nib. All of the FPR pens I bought have ebonite feeds.
    Do you know what you want to use the flex nib for and what types o fink and paper you will be using? These can have major affects on your results.
    FWIW - all of my FPR pens have their steel nibs which work fine for me. For fine/extra fine nibs I can write on just about any paper. For broad & flexing I have to use either TR or HP32 paper.
    I bought my UltraFlex one for writing fun and using shimmering/sheening inks. I also have it setup as an eyedropper fill to get me more ink volume. The pen writes well this way but you need to be aware of problems you can run into with any brand of flex pen. I think theirs works fine but it can still cause you problems.
    The nice thing is that their pens are not very expensive and you can have an ultraflex nib installed at the time you order it on one of their cheaper pens to try first.
    I would suggest contacting them directly, they are pretty good about getting back to you and can probably recommend combinations of pen(s) and nib(s) that might work best.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    I had bad luck with a leaky FPR pen, FWIW.

    My favorite nibs have been on vintage pens. The flex nibs on early Watermans, Mabie Todds and Eversharps are legendary for a good reason.
    Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. — Horace
    (What are you laughing at? Just change the name and the joke’s on you.)

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    There's a great website about fountain pen design, and how feeds, inks and all that work. It gets technical, but I at least find it to be very interesting. Worth taking time to read if you pan on tinkering with pens, and even if you don't plan on tinkering with pens.

    Fountain Pen Design.
    OMG thank you, this is JUST what I was looking for!!
    This is the information I couldn't find anywhere or on youtube!
    It has everything I was looking for on how the Feed works!!!!

    You rock man, thank you!

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    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by tde44 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Detman101 View Post
    Concerning getting the PENBBS-456 modified to get the end results I desire....I just did the math based on the posted wait time of nib-meisters and pen repair-people that I've seen on the internet.

    PENBBS-456 order wait time from china: 3 months
    Nib-Meister/Repairman Installation of Flex-pen parts into PENBBS-456: 3-4 months (based on posted wait queues)

    Thats a total of 6 MONTHS!!
    Half a frickin year JUST to get a flex pen the way I need.

    Maybe buying the FPR flex pen built already is the way I need to go...
    Has anyone had good experience with the FPR pens?
    If the wait is not long I'd be fine with just buying one of those but everything I've seen says they have production issues.
    I'm leery of buying one from there only to have to return it.
    Do they test the pens out before they ship them?
    I have a couple of FPR pens - including a Himalaya v2 with UltraFlex nib. All of the FPR pens I bought have ebonite feeds.
    Do you know what you want to use the flex nib for and what types o fink and paper you will be using? These can have major affects on your results.
    FWIW - all of my FPR pens have their steel nibs which work fine for me. For fine/extra fine nibs I can write on just about any paper. For broad & flexing I have to use either TR or HP32 paper.
    I bought my UltraFlex one for writing fun and using shimmering/sheening inks. I also have it setup as an eyedropper fill to get me more ink volume. The pen writes well this way but you need to be aware of problems you can run into with any brand of flex pen. I think theirs works fine but it can still cause you problems.
    The nice thing is that their pens are not very expensive and you can have an ultraflex nib installed at the time you order it on one of their cheaper pens to try first.
    I would suggest contacting them directly, they are pretty good about getting back to you and can probably recommend combinations of pen(s) and nib(s) that might work best.

    Thank you! That is exactly what I was thinking too! And I did just that last night, I sent Kevin an email via the "Contact us" tab on the FPR webpage.
    He replied back today and suggested I try out the Jaipur with an Ultra Flex Nib. It's a piston filler, has great ink capacity AND has the Flex ability I desire AND it's not too big or delicate.

    So I'm giving it a shot...
    I believe this will work for me!

    When the PENBBS-456 arrives I'll put it and the parts to the side to be assembled at a later time.

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    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    Detman, ask around here: there are decades of accumulated pen knowledge.

    Give us an idea what you're looking for and we can point you in the right direction, or somebody probably already has a pen they could sell you.

    vintage-style flex in a modern pen isn't real easy to come by, but you've got way more options now than you did 5 years ago.

    Pierre Miller of Desiderata pens is hand-building pens designed around the G dip nib, subject to availability, some priced under $100.

    Noodlers is another company to check out, their flex nibs are pretty stiff but hackable (look for "ease my flex," an invention of our very own Pterodactylus)

    The most common #6 nib unit in use these days is the Jowo, so getting a pen that takes one of those is a strong start.

    The FPR ultraflex nibs are based on the Ease My Flex mod, I've tried one once and it worked pretty well.

    ok, good luck.
    Thank you so much, I should have checked out the Classifieds/sales forum on here to see what everyone had available.
    I just felt so frustrated after buying all these things to build a flex pen and nothing really meeting my needs. I mean, well my Brass pen kinda meets the requirement...but it's ink capacity is far too low for flex writing as it's using a C/C.
    But other than that, it performs calligraphy PRECISELY how I desire. It just can't do it for very long.
    I wrote my sister a long letter with it earlier yesterday and had to refill the converter with ink. I never expected two pages of writing to drain a fully filled converter...but it did. If I'd been writing without flexing I'm sure it would have been more than ample.

    But that is why I need a large-ink-capacity pen separately from my precious brass pen in order to do flex writing and calligraphy.
    That is why I ordered an ultra-flex Jaipur from FPR this morning.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I am so sorry for your experiences. I cannot tell, even though I read you OP again, what you want to do with a FP. Perhaps calligraphy??

    Anyway, Esterbrook made many nib types and they are still available. They do screw in and out. You have the choice of learning to restore them yourself or purchase them restored. They are not expensive at all and one pen could serve as a hold for many nibs. http://snyderfamily.com/current/estienibs.htm
    https://www.vintagepens.com/Esterbrook.shtml http://www.esterbrook.net/

    If you choose to restore them yourself, the new parts are available.

    Another option is to consider dip pens. This is a wonderful experience and the ancient nibs are available. https://theesterbrookproject.com/INDEX.html
    Oh wow....I have never even heard of Esterbrook, I will definitely look them up and see what they have to offer. Hopefully their pen design is attractive too.
    That was one of the reasons I don't like vintage pens...to me, they're just ugly.
    The ones Iv'e seen have Hardly any metal in them or on them...and I looooove metal.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Esterbrooks are very well made and found about everywhere. The trim is stainless, so never rusts or brasses (plating wearing off). The 1000 and 2000 series nibs are OK, but not tipped with a hard material. It's not unusual to find them damaged, with the "tipping" material having fallen off. The 9000 series nibs OTOH, are very good and tough. Even with the expensive pens that I repair and/or own, I still have 4 of them loaded at the moment.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    I guess the only way this works...is to spend hundreds on a vintage flexible nib pen.

    So I guess that's what I'll do.
    There isn't anything that is made nowadays that works...and trying to make it work is like polishing the brass on the titanic.
    Complete waste of time.
    It'll never be the same as the old days...

    Or maybe it's time for a holy grail pen...This one would do the trick!!

    https://www.gouletpens.com/collectio...o3OHoifQ%3D%3D
    Last edited by Detman101; August 28th, 2020 at 07:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    My best flexies are a Waterman red ripple and a Swan snakeskin pen, both very lovely flexers and nice pens as well, and both picked up cheaply in the wild. I resacked the Swan myself and that was all I needed to do.

    But you may be better off finding a flex nib, then getting a pen to match, than the other way around. Normally I'd say ask one of the Indian pen makers to do a custom job (Ranga, ASA or Fosfor) but that may not be possible with the lockdown in India.

    We do rather overrate vintage pens though, because the ones we see are the good ones. If you'd had to use a 1960s Platignum or one of the scratchy steel nibbed French pens from the 1930s or 1940s I see all the time, you'd have been cussing at them and you would have been right. I think the reason there aren't so many around is that people hated them enough to actually destroy them rather than just putting them in a drawer and forgetting them!

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    Amk,

    That is what was suggested to me by another member of this fine forum...to just get an FPR-Jaipur-V2 upgraded to the ultra-flex nib and be done with it.
    I think that is the easiest path for me to take at this point. I'm VERY wary of getting into the whole "Hunt down a Vintage Flex-Pen" arena. I don't have the patience, money or stamina for a blind search of that magnitude.
    I am a technical person. I'm not impressed with artistic finishes or amazing woods or metals used for making the pen. All of that is fluff to me. I'm impressed with mechanical abilities like the shutoff valve in the Penbbs-456 and 355...or the double reservoir with shutoff valve in the Visconti Opera Polynesia...
    That stuff makes me drool. I could care less about a gold nib with scrollwork and inlaid silver and diamonds....bleh.
    I want mechanical capability...more than anything.

    Hahahahaha...that cracked me up!
    Are some of the old pens THAT bad!?
    I never hear anything about any bad finds on the web. Everyone always makes it seem like ANY old pen from the 20's-30's is a godsend and does everything needed. I know about the repairs needed to get them up and running but after that...they seem like a slice of heaven.
    Last edited by Detman101; August 28th, 2020 at 08:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Ignore: Gutted...I don't understand this. Everythings gone backwards...

    I remember my first Esterbrook restoration fondly. I watched a few videos and got the replacement parts from Anderson Pens. From there I've restored to working order a couple of dozen.

    In the photos are pens from the 1950's, a Sheaffer Triumph conical nib type and the gold 51. All work and perform well. Very enjoyable for daily use.

    Almost forgot the Conway Stewart #84 I bought from a good member here, Deb.

    Then, there is always the wonderful opportunity of Autopoint pencils. THe large one is from 1927. I read someone say the only rare Auitopoint is the one that does not work...LOL!!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; August 29th, 2020 at 03:45 AM.

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