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Thread: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

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    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Default HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    It was working perfectly fine with an ebonite Flex nib unit from "Flexible Nib Factory" until I loaded it with "Pelikan 4001 - Dark Green" today.
    Ever since, it won't feed the ink through to the nib!
    The feed gets wet...and if I rub the feed on the paper...ink comes through. It just won't come through the nib!
    It's like that damnable ink changed the chemical makeup of the nib making it hydrophobic instead of hydroscopic or something.
    I can't get the nib to even carry ink anymore for some reason.
    I scrubbed the entire pen down with soapy water, put it back together again and lightly silicone-greased the o-rings and thread areas and it STILL doesn't work.

    If I put the stock nib unit back in...it works fine as a feather! I can write for pages and pages until I have to refill the pen with ink.
    But the ebonite nib unit is just....broken...somehow. I put it in the pen...it stops working completely.

    If I take out the ebonite housing from the pen and clean off the silicone grease from the threads where the housing screws into the section, the feed drips and burps ink all over the page and makes a total mess.
    I put silicone grease back on the threads to the housing...it locks up and no ink flows.

    I'm completely baffled...I don't understand how this ink ruined my pens ebonite feed/housing and nib.


    Can anyone drop any suggestions in here?
    I have no clue what to do or where to go besides sending it off to a nibmeister for repair...which is pretty much sending it off to die.
    It would be a year before I got it back.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Hi Detman101---

    I think the reason why you didn't get any flow (or very little flow) is because the Pelikan 4001 series of inks are considered "dry" inks, with much less viscousity than, for example, the Pilot Iroshizuki series. Pelikan pen nib units are well noted as very gushy flowy writers, and the Pelikan 4001 inks were designed to tame this. May I suggest removing the ebonite nib unit and letting it sit in a glass of cleaning solution made up of distilled/deionized water and a drop of Dawn dishwashing detergent over-night. Then thoroughly rinse the nib unit, dry, and reassemble, and then try again with a "wet" or 'neutral" ink, such as the original test ink you used for the new ebonite unit you put together.

    Just my 2 pence.

    All the Best.
    Last edited by junglejim; August 27th, 2020 at 08:05 PM. Reason: spelling, as usual...
    Bucket list - walk the Camino de Santiago again

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by junglejim View Post
    Hi Detman101---

    I think the reason why you didn't get any flow (or very little flow) is because the Pelikan 4001 series of inks are considered "dry" inks, with much less viscousity than, for example, the Pilot Iroshizuki series. Pelikan pen nib units are well noted as very gushy flowy writers, and the Pelikan 4001 inks were designed to tame this. May I suggest removing the ebonite nib unit and letting it sit in a glass of cleaning solution made up of distilled/deionized water and a drop of Dawn dishwashing detergent over-night. Then thoroughly rinse the nib unit, dry, and reassemble, and then try again with a "wet" or 'neutral" ink, such as the original test ink you used for the new ebonite unit you put together.

    Just my 2 pence.

    All the Best.
    Junglejim,

    Thank you for your insight and advice. I will do exactly as you've advised and prepare a soaking solution of distilled water with one drop of dawn dishwashing detergent and let the nib, feed and housing unit soak in it overnight.
    Then tomorrow morning i'll thoroughly rinse the pieces, air-dry through the day while I'm at work and reassemble tomorrow night for testing.

    I will be requesting a refund for that Pelikan ink on amazon immediately.

    Thank you so much!

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    I have Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black and it is a very interesting ink. Definitely dry writing and I guess a high surface tension.

    I've tried it with a semi flex Wahl Ringtop and with some of my flexy Esterbrook nibs. To my great surprise, it can transition to flex flow and back to hairline flow almost instantly.

    I haven't tried flex with more than a few inks but this has really been the best by far.

    Anyway... It took inventors a long time to sort out the fountain pen to the state it achieved by the 1920s, able to handle flex and whatnot.

    So it may take more than a few days and a lot of stumbles and hiccups for you to figure things out. In other words, don't give up just yet!

    I personally find projects like this, using real science and engineering, to be incredibly rewarding. Although, they are often incredibly frustrating and maddening, too. But if it was easy it wouldn't be worthwhile.

    That's why I have huge admiration for the Wright brothers. I found it incredibly inspiring to read up on the remarkable, ground-breaking scientific research they performed to optimize wing shapes and propeller shapes using their own wind tunnel, and to perfect the mechanisms for control surfaces, before attempting even manned gliding let alone powered flight.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by Detman101 View Post
    I will be requesting a refund for that Pelikan ink on amazon immediately.
    There is nothing wrong with the ink (ie., no grounds for demanding a refund), it is as Jim explained, designed to be a drier ink.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    I have Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black and it is a very interesting ink. Definitely dry writing and I guess a high surface tension.

    I've tried it with a semi flex Wahl Ringtop and with some of my flexy Esterbrook nibs. To my great surprise, it can transition to flex flow and back to hairline flow almost instantly.

    I haven't tried flex with more than a few inks but this has really been the best by far.

    Anyway... It took inventors a long time to sort out the fountain pen to the state it achieved by the 1920s, able to handle flex and whatnot.

    So it may take more than a few days and a lot of stumbles and hiccups for you to figure things out. In other words, don't give up just yet!

    I personally find projects like this, using real science and engineering, to be incredibly rewarding. Although, they are often incredibly frustrating and maddening, too. But if it was easy it wouldn't be worthwhile.

    That's why I have huge admiration for the Wright brothers. I found it incredibly inspiring to read up on the remarkable, ground-breaking scientific research they performed to optimize wing shapes and propeller shapes using their own wind tunnel, and to perfect the mechanisms for control surfaces, before attempting even manned gliding let alone powered flight.
    That was my initial desired effect.
    I wanted to reduce the flow of the 456 down to an actual "EF" that the nib is branded as, but still be able to flex like it did.
    I did not anticipate that the ink would chemically destroy the hydrophilic properties of the nib, housing and feed the way it did.

    After trying what JungleJim suggested, I'll give it another try.
    I don't know how to achieve what my desired goal is though, this time I'll just ask first and then if no one else knows...I'll run into walls blindly while hoping I find the exit.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Detman101 View Post
    I will be requesting a refund for that Pelikan ink on amazon immediately.
    There is nothing wrong with the ink (ie., no grounds for demanding a refund), it is as Jim explained, designed to be a drier ink.
    Correct, there is nothing wrong with the ink.
    However, it doesn't work for me...and because of that, I'm getting a refund.
    Refund is issued...Just have to drop the mess off at the UPS store tomorrow and my money is back in my account.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    How much does 4009 run a bottle these days. I only ever used the blueblack.

    Try Quink or Script.

    4001 didn’t ruin your feed, just clean it off.

    I thin you are looking for hydrophobic not hydroscopic.

    Post a picture of your nib in the pen. Most of the described issues can be resolved by tuning the nib. If you really like the ink I’ll wager Ron can dial it in for you.

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    Wink Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by junglejim View Post
    Hi Detman101---

    I think the reason why you didn't get any flow (or very little flow) is because the Pelikan 4001 series of inks are considered "dry" inks, with much less viscousity than, for example, the Pilot Iroshizuki series. Pelikan pen nib units are well noted as very gushy flowy writers, and the Pelikan 4001 inks were designed to tame this. May I suggest removing the ebonite nib unit and letting it sit in a glass of cleaning solution made up of distilled/deionized water and a drop of Dawn dishwashing detergent over-night. Then thoroughly rinse the nib unit, dry, and reassemble, and then try again with a "wet" or 'neutral" ink, such as the original test ink you used for the new ebonite unit you put together.

    Just my 2 pence.

    All the Best.
    Welp, followed your instructions to the letter.
    Just reassembled...it doesn't work the same...but it's working kinda.
    Looks like I'm out $60 for this upgrade kit tho.
    Either way, I'm down to one pen again.
    Unless there's some chemical I can soak these pieces in to restore it's ability to conduct ink.

    Hmmm...I wonder if I can scrub the underside of the nib with sandpaper or something and restore it's ink conductive layer...

    EDIT: Nah...you know what...it's working...accept it as it is and move on til another day.
    I'm gonna enjoy it for a little...even in it's kneecapped and slightly disabled current status...lol


    EDIT2: I'm going to clean the whole pen the way you suggested. I'm certain that stupid ink screwed up the rest of the parts coating it in hells juice and breaking the performance of the pen itself.
    Or I at least need to scrub/soak the section. That's the primary port to the ink chamber...if that's acting wonky because of that hell juice ink...it'll keep the butt end of the exposed feed from getting the supply it needs....
    Last edited by Detman101; August 28th, 2020 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    If one is trying to solve a challenging problem that only a few others have done, recently, one needs a heap of patience and a methodical, science-based approach. This ends up being something of an engineering research project, I guess.

    If it were me, I would want to gain a better understanding of the physics at play here and let that inform further experimentation.

    Pelikan didn't ruin your feed. I've used it in many pens and had to switch back to wetter ink but never had a problem. If you have an inaccurate understanding of the physics you're really going to have a tough time figuring all this out.

    Something I don't have a firm grasp on is viscosity, surface tension or any other properties and how they affect: flow rate, tendency for railroading, change of flow rate (from EF to BBBB), feathering, bleeding and show through. I have theories but haven't tried measuring or experimenting. Some inks have defied my original theories.

    For what it's worth, I would rank these black inks, from highest flow to least: Sheaffer Black, Iroshizuku Take-sumi, Quink Black, JH Perle Noir, Waterman Intense Black, Montblanc Mystery Black, Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black.

    I know that air entering the reservoir relates to how much ink can leave the reservoir. I know that a few pens I've had that have leaks allowing more air entry than what's possible through the nib will tend to flow very, very wet and even drip on the page.

    Will using a breather tube with larger ID result in a higher flow of ink versus a tube with smaller ID?

    What about feeds that have an air channel and a fill channel like newer Esterbrook nibs and Parker 45s? How are they plumbed and do they draw in air from the fill. Hole? How do they not leak? (Neither uses a breather tube).

    Is ebonite absolutely necessary for a flex pen? Is flow only down to how hydrophilic a surface is? I have read that plastic is less so than ebonite but have also read modern pen makers have treated the surface of plastic feeds with... texture I think? ... to improve wetting.

    Do fewer fins make pens more drip prone? Or starvation prone? Dry-out prone?

    Is capillary action required in the feed? How do the number and depth of ink channels help with flow? How much does the breather channel help?

    The Parker a challenger (and maybe others) use a different feed for B vs F nib pens. I'm not sure if that's a bigger breather channel or deeper ink channels or what.

    What allows a nib to continue to deliver ink when flexed, even if the nib lifts off the feed? Are there ways to prevent that happening?

    Rather than banging into walls it would be nice to sort of map out the house a little.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by azkid View Post
    If one is trying to solve a challenging problem that only a few others have done, recently, one needs a heap of patience and a methodical, science-based approach.
    ... and all the rest.

    My friend, you said what I had in my head in better detail and more perspective than I would have typed. This has all gone on too long simply because of a lack of patience and the diligence to sit back and understand the problems, in detail, before attempting solutions. Thank you for an excellent response, one which I hope the OP will give plenty of consideration.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Oh I'm sorry...I thought this forum was a place for discussion and brainstorming. Especially when one doesn't know these things already.
    If I knew the path already, wtf would I need to ask you all for.
    Didn't realize I was wasting your precious time...I'll take my questions elsewhere.

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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by Detman101 View Post
    Oh I'm sorry...I thought this forum was a place for discussion and brainstorming. Especially when one doesn't know these things already.
    If I knew the path already, wtf would I need to ask you all for.
    Didn't realize I was wasting your precious time...I'll take my questions elsewhere.
    Please read azkid's post again, no need to cop an attitude. The help that many people have given you should be ample indication of the community's desire to help those in need of assistance and information. What we're asking is for you to modify your methods a bit to make it a better process and outcome.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Default Re: HELP REQ: Penbbs-456 won't feed ink..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Detman101 View Post
    Oh I'm sorry...I thought this forum was a place for discussion and brainstorming. Especially when one doesn't know these things already.
    If I knew the path already, wtf would I need to ask you all for.
    Didn't realize I was wasting your precious time...I'll take my questions elsewhere.
    Please read azkid's post again, no need to cop an attitude. The help that many people have given you should be ample indication of the community's desire to help those in need of assistance and information. What we're asking is for you to modify your methods a bit to make it a better process and outcome.
    Understood, method modified.

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