I Cannot Fathom This Election

[dneal]

More pedantry is all you got? You're ok with what's on video? Or just ok as long as your guy wins? Or just ok as long as the guy you hate loses?

"Hur, dur, you said 'fraud', and then you said 'illegal'..." Look buddy, I'm not a prosecutor and you're not a judge. This is a politics section of a pen forum.

Deflect all you want. Your TDS is astounding.

[TSherbs]

I'll add that I watched a news bit on the data and statistics team (from some university) that analyzes voting results for several states. The guy in charge said that what they do is recount a certain sample and then extrapolate from the results the likely hood that the winner that the state has in their counting process is the correct winner. When the likelihood hits something like 99.7% (I can't remember exactly), then they confirm the result. In other words, they don't in any way assess the legality or procedures or poll practices or methods of suppression. They just evaluate whether the state commission result has the correct winner. It's like a DNA match: there is an industry standard, established by scientists and accepted into law, that "confirms" the identity of me as TSherbs. An exact match of every piece of DNA is not possible nor required. I believe that state election commissions (I don't specifically know about Georgia, but the commissioner referred to "sample" confirmations) use this group's analysis as part of their decision whether to certify or not. This is what matters, not, as politicians repeat ad nauseam, that "every legal vote is counted." That absolute is actually never the legal standard for certification. Nor has it ever been "And no vote shall ever count if it was processed without observers." They do the best that they can, and then use recounts when the results are "close" (determined by statute), and then also a statistical analysis of sampling. The counts actually often go on for weeks, even if a state has been "called" until a state formally certifies a result. This happens every time. The bark this year is just noise from desperate losers. Even Gore did not ask for a recount until the last votes came in and the margin for Florida was under 1000. And he only pursued in Florida. And he only sued to keep the recount going when Florida wanted to end it (the marred paper votes were becoming very challenging to figure out). This is a whole different level of circus this time (none of which, of course, Trump insisted on in 2016---nor Hilary--despite Trump alleging that the Dems stole 3 million votes from him (Clinton's margin of victory).

He is a crass, baseless, opportunist liar, and anyone who follows his lead on this election rigging nonsense is being played for a fool.

[dneal]

Watching the news is your first problem. There's no news there - just opinion.

If you were watching the hearings, you would see the discussion about the legislatures (all Republican controlled) decertifying electors certified by the Secretaries of State and Governors and certifying their own. The Georgia hearings went into this in great detail, and whether Georgia or Federal law sets the standard since under Georgia law only the Governor or 2/3 of the legislature can call a special session. The other side of the argument was that Federal law trumps that, since the election of a President is a Federal issue. They discussed what happens if two sets of electors are submitted to the Senate, and so forth.

Do I think three or four legislatures are going to do that? Not really. Do I think there's more to this than just a conspiracy theory? Based on the evidence presented at the State hearings - yes. Do I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Democrats conspired to win states by committing fraud in a few key cities? No, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case either.

[TSherbs]

Watching the news is your first problem. There's no news there - just opinion.

If you were watching the hearings, you would see the discussion about the legislatures (all Republican controlled) decertifying electors certified by the Secretaries of State and Governors and certifying their own. The Georgia hearings went into this in great detail, and whether Georgia or Federal law sets the standard since under Georgia law only the Governor or 2/3 of the legislature can call a special session. The other side of the argument was that Federal law trumps that, since the election of a President is a Federal issue. They discussed what happens if two sets of electors are submitted to the Senate, and so forth.

Do I think three or four legislatures are going to do that? Not really. Do I think there's more to this than just a conspiracy theory? Based on the evidence presented at the State hearings - yes. Do I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Democrats conspired to win states by committing fraud in a few key cities? No, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case either.

You said that the video clip was "likely evidence of fraud." I watched it and commented ONLY on that. Then I added info on the certification process that I had heard about.

I care little about these various "hearings." They are political and desperate and misguided and fruitless. They aren't about changing this outcome. They are cynical ploys to agitate the base, raise money, and set people up for future elections. Maybe a few states will look into changing the way they allocate electors (like my state, Maine, already has). We don't get any of this bullshit because we (usually) are more middle-of-the-road and we divide our electors--it is not winner-take-all. If any legislature dared to overide the certified result in their state, there will be a gun war. I don't believe that any legislatures want that (they, I would guess, would be shot first). There are some crazies out there itching for a fight, but they are not the elected officials. America takes its democracy and power to change leaders very very seriously. No state will actually mess with that. This is all just for show.

[Freddie]

'Tis Like Flogging A Dead Horse.

Mmm-boy, are you ----------------------- ------------------ ------------------
------------------------ ------------------ ------------------------- ----------
Reggie Van Gleason III


{Freakin'SmileyFaceTimeThingie}

Fred

More from the TDS echo chamber.

Fascinatin’

Pal, it sure is. Next time use cacophonous TDS EC....Sounds better..However..Not applicable to me...Methinks you're Projecting...

Fred
along with Mr. Brewster Bubblebath, Mr. Christopher Blemish, Mr. Cutting Grove and of course Mr. Oliver Stain from
the Good Cop Bad Cop Production Company.

[kazoolaw]

dneal-

Be of good cheer. TS now admits that the voting counting shown in the video is illegal. It may be a bridge to far for him to ask himself "Why was excluding observers made illegal?" Or, "What legimate purpose is served by excluding observers, breaking the law, and counting votes in secret?" Or, "Might there be a connection between those who break the law counting ballots and those in charge of certifying an election?"

Breaking the law by excluding legally mandated observers is evidence of intent to conceal. And what lawful activity needs to be concealed? What reason would there be to break the law and by that very action create doubt about the credibility of those entrusted with ensuring the validity of the election?

Having TS admit that the voting process was illegal, though he thinks that's no big deal, is an achievement. I'll leave it to others to deconstruct how "fraud" is not "illegal."

[dneal]

*sigh*

Let my try this one more time.

I am not a Trump supporter, and I am not a Trump hater. I have never voted for him.

The country is becoming more polarized, and I think dangerously polarized. Media, both mainstream and social, are outlets of propaganda and spin; reinforcing the opinions of the lunatic left and rabid right.

Half the electorate made Trump President, and wanted him to have a second term. The man is an obnoxious narcissist, and they overlook that for some reason. It behooves people to try to understand why, beyond accusatory statements of they must be racists, deplorables, fascists, etc... Discourse is lost.

That half of the electorate believes something fraudulent happened during this election. It behooves people to try to understand why they believe that too. The circumstantial evidence reinforces their view. Ignoring it, shouting them down, "fact-checking" them, or calling it "baseless" - whether it comes from them or the President himself - drives them to more conspiratorial outlets where they are exposed to baseless conspiracy theories.

The half of the electorate that despises Trump are happy to nod sagely as their preferred "information" outlets reinforce their opinion. They also reiterate their mantras. "It's been debunked". "There's no evidence". One side sits in its echo chamber, and the other side is driven to a different one. Everyone ends up shouting their inane buzz-phrases they gleaned from somewhere else at each other.

This board appears to me to lean left, so I tend to focus on presenting the competing view. I am amazed at the vitriol and invective that results, when seemingly fragile worldviews are challenged. The outright dismissiveness is incredible.

Election fraud is as old as elections. I don't care if Biden is inaugurated. I do care that we implement a system that assures all voters of it's validity. It doesn't really matter how much integrity the system does or doesn't have, when people can legitimately argue the appearance of that integrity (or lack thereof). The Trump supporters have a significant amount of circumstantial evidence to make that argument.

We see what the radical left does when they don't get their way. Occupy Wall Street, Trump's election, BLM, etc... result in blocked roadways, smashed windows, burned city blocks, people dragged from their cars and beaten, but that seems to be ok. Protestors get run over by scared people in cars, and they're called racists and terrorists. I don't think any of you have truly any idea of what could potentially happen when the "deplorables" reach their tipping point, because you make no effort to try to understand them.

[TSherbs]

As a side note, I blame the pressures of the Electoral College process and the winner-take-all allocation for much of these state tensions and lawsuits today. I am in favor of an amendment terminating the EC and using the standard of a national popular vote for Presidency. Short of that, I am in favor of the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (although that would clearly be challenged in court by those who fear that they have something to lose--most likely the whites in less populous states). My guess is that the EC has an expiration date on it if about 10-20 more years. Then it will be amended out, or otherwise negated.

[kazoolaw]

My guess is that the EC has an expiration date on it if about 10-20 more years. Then it will be amended out, or otherwise negated.

I don't see a "Best if used by" date in the US Constitution, but please feel free to review Article II for yourself.

[Ray-VIgo]

An attempt to Amend the Constitution in the present climate would precipitate a civil war. We are at the point (and perhaps have been for some time) where the losing side claims illegitimacy of the result. If Trump had won, the left would claim fraud and vote suppression, and with Biden winning, we have Trump and a sizeable number of supporters claiming fraud. To bootstrap a Constitutional amendment onto the back of that would make things worse, not better. To take a result a significant number of people view as illegitimate, and then to claim that result as a popular mandate to proceed with the amendment process is gas on the fire. If thousands and thousands of people are this pissed off about a presidential election, it would only be more intense if you then try to amend the Constitution as a follow-up. The same is probably true if the left tries to alter the number of justices on the Supreme Court. I'd normally say the best measure is to start with measures that have a chance at a consensus, at least, but I'm not even sure anymore what those can be.

[Chuck Naill]

I was very pleased with the selection of several experts being asked to serve in the new administration's COVID task force including, Drs Fauci, Olsterhom, and Bright. This is how you deal with a problem, IMHO, by getting the right people on the bus. I don't have to be the smartest person in the room, nor do I have to get the glory for success, although I take responsibility for the results. My job is to assemble. It is like developing a winning team, knowing how to recognize talent and getting them on the team.

[TSherbs]

An attempt to Amend the Constitution in the present climate would precipitate a civil war. We are at the point (and perhaps have been for some time) where the losing side claims illegitimacy of the result. If Trump had won, the left would claim fraud and vote suppression, and with Biden winning, we have Trump and a sizeable number of supporters claiming fraud. To bootstrap a Constitutional amendment onto the back of that would make things worse, not better. To take a result a significant number of people view as illegitimate, and then to claim that result as a popular mandate to proceed with the amendment process is gas on the fire. If thousands and thousands of people are this pissed off about a presidential election, it would only be more intense if you then try to amend the Constitution as a follow-up. The same is probably true if the left tries to alter the number of justices on the Supreme Court. I'd normally say the best measure is to start with measures that have a chance at a consensus, at least, but I'm not even sure anymore what those can be.

I understand your point. I just think that this change is inevitable over time. The amendment process takes consensus through super-majority and then lengthy ratification. It can only happen once there is reasonable consensus. Yeah, right now it's not happening. But I think that it is coming, especially if we have more situations like 2000 and 2016 (and this year doesn't help).

[Empty_of_Clouds]

So back on topic.

The Georgia Senate held their hearings today, and it was one of the best I've seen so far. Most interestingly (or shockingly) was video evidence of likely fraud.

Jackie Pick shows video of the absentee counting area, and narrates it.

In summary:

- The video is from State Farm Arena in Fulton County, where absentee ballots are being counted.
- at around 10pm, workers announce that they are going to stop counting and will resume in the morning. Everybody is told to leave.
- You see ballot tubs being rounded up and secured, and people (to include the media and GOP observers) leave.
- 4-6 workers remain seated at their workstations.
- When all outside observers (and media) leave, they start pulling black tubs of ballots from under cloth covered tables and start scanning them.
- More ballots are brought in and scanning continues for approximately two hours.

The events and times correspond to affidavits filed. Were these affiants just delusional?

I'll be waiting with bated breath to see this reported by CNN, The Washington Post, The New York Times, etc...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/video...b619bc4c330575

[TSherbs]

So back on topic.

The Georgia Senate held their hearings today, and it was one of the best I've seen so far. Most interestingly (or shockingly) was video evidence of likely fraud.

Jackie Pick shows video of the absentee counting area, and narrates it.

In summary:

- The video is from State Farm Arena in Fulton County, where absentee ballots are being counted.
- at around 10pm, workers announce that they are going to stop counting and will resume in the morning. Everybody is told to leave.
- You see ballot tubs being rounded up and secured, and people (to include the media and GOP observers) leave.
- 4-6 workers remain seated at their workstations.
- When all outside observers (and media) leave, they start pulling black tubs of ballots from under cloth covered tables and start scanning them.
- More ballots are brought in and scanning continues for approximately two hours.

The events and times correspond to affidavits filed. Were these affiants just delusional?

I'll be waiting with bated breath to see this reported by CNN, The Washington Post, The New York Times, etc...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/video...b619bc4c330575

Desperate losers produce desperate arguments.

None of it is going to matter in the outcome, but the corrosive effect on "evidence" and logic could be longer lasting.

[dneal]

@EoC - Yes, and Facebook also started "Fact-checking" shortly after it began appearing on that site. You've cited Huffpost. You are aware that is a liberal publication, aren't you? You're just reinforcing my point about the problem(s) with the media and their credibility. The Governor of Georgia said the evidence is troubling, and called for a signature audit. Curiously, that bit of information from the chief executive of the State of Georgia (I think that is a pretty important "Georgia official", but I might be wrong...) is not included in the piece you linked.

Your piece says: "Other election workers started to pack up, Sterling told The Associated Press in an interview. They put prepared ballots back in boxes and away under a table “to close out for the night.” We clearly see that is not true. The video shows black containers being taken from under a table, not placed there. The video shows that they did not "close out for the night", when they spent two more hours apparently scanning ballots. It is curious that they finished up and cleared out just before the Republican poll watches re-enter the room around 1am.

Facebook's "fact-checker" cites Frances Watson, chief investigator for the Georgia secretary of state, as saying: "There wasn't a bin that had ballots in it under that table. It was an empty bin and the ballots from it were actually out on the table when the media were still there, and then it was placed back into the box when the media were still there and placed next to the table." Clearly the video shows the bins being pulled from under the table, drug over to a workstation, opened, and papers (presumably ballots) being pulled out and stacked on a cleared workstation. Then we see what appears to be the alleged scanning of them.

But hey, let's accept what some journalism major wrote instead of what we can see with our own eyes.

[dneal]

Desperate losers produce desperate arguments.

None of it is going to matter in the outcome, but the corrosive effect on "evidence" and logic could be longer lasting.

That's correct Winston. 2+2=5

I'm not sure how you can be teaching a class on Orwell's 1984, when you seem to have not understood the lessons it teaches.

[welch]

It has been argued above that Huffington Post cannot be truthful because it is a "liberal" magazine, even though Huffington gathered explanations from people running the counting, and those explanations refute the interpretations that conspiracy fantasists put to the tape.

Empty_of_Clouds, at the beginning of Bruno Latour's Pandora's Hope, Latour mentions that a colleague had asked, "Do you believe in reality?" We Americans have faced, for four years, a conspiracy-theory from Trump that aims to shred any sense of reality. We are holding on, but it is obvious that Trumpists are laying out a fantasy as dishonest as the right-wing German "stab in the back". Trump won by a landslide but, somehow, voting machines all recorded Trump votes as being for President-Elect Biden.

In court in Georgia, Trump's "elite strike team lawyer" presented her Kraken to a US Appeals Court without having first had a hearing at which evidence might be viewed. Writing for the court, Judge Brasher says, "We don't view cases. We review them". You cannot ask us to rule on a case that has not been decided -- not even heard -- said Judge Brasher. Stopping just short of calling Sidney Powell a moron, the court noted that she seems unable "to take yes for an answer", since the District Court -- the one that hears evidence -- had worked through last weekend to agree that three Georgia counties should not reset their voting machines until a hearing today. That would be one at which the state could respond and the court could consider evidence. You have to ask the court for another hearing date, said the Circuit Judge.

Here is today's ruling against Kraken Powell.

https://www.democracydocket.com/wp-c...NdKJjMmcBc50oE

[welch]

It is claimed above that the governor of Georgia is concerned about the video planted above, but there is no link to Governor Kemp's statement.

[dneal]

It is claimed above that the governor of Georgia is concerned about the video planted above, but there is no link to Governor Kemp's statement.

You probably didn't get it because the Ministry of Truth chucked it down a memory hole.

Here's what the proles are saying:https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...CNkvl8TfVcipSM

[welch]

Meanwhile, both the Daily Mail and the Post (Australia) are marveling at Trump's star witness in Michigan, Melissa Carrone. (Note: over the summer, I watched an Australian series called Rake, a series that wrote off Rudy Giuliani's character as "too bizarre even for us").