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Thread: I Cannot Fathom This Election

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    "Nor is a good look to ignore it when it happens, whether from left or right. "

    You are right and accusations need real proof. There is no proof. There have been plenty of opportunities to produce evidence of fraud, tampering, or any other type of misconduct, and nothing that has come to light has been remotely acceptable as evidence. The arguments have even been rejected by judges appointed by President Trump. (because justice is not blind) The American system of justice requires proof of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. That burden falls squarely on the party who is claiming that something unlawful has occurred. There is no proof. Joe Biden won the election.

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    welch (December 8th, 2020)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    "Nor is a good look to ignore it when it happens, whether from left or right. "

    You are right and accusations need real proof. There is no proof. There have been plenty of opportunities to produce evidence of fraud, tampering, or any other type of misconduct, and nothing that has come to light has been remotely acceptable as evidence. The arguments have even been rejected by judges appointed by President Trump. (because justice is not blind) The American system of justice requires proof of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. That burden falls squarely on the party who is claiming that something unlawful has occurred. There is no proof. Joe Biden won the election.
    There is evidence. For it to become proof (either for or against the argument) there needs to be some semblance of investigation rather than outright dismissal of concerns.

    This is not about who ends up President. There is little chance that Joe Biden is not inaugurated.

    This is about 40% of the electorate that thinks something is wrong. Dismissing them, particularly using derogatory and partisan language, only strengthens their suspicions. That's how you confirm and increase belief in conspiracy theories.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    There is no proof. There have been plenty of opportunities to produce evidence of fraud, tampering, or any other type of misconduct, and nothing that has come to light has been remotely acceptable as evidence.
    In the words of that famous legal scholar: "You keep using that word, I don't think you know what it means." -Inigo Montoya



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    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Yes, Trumpists believe in "credible, fraudulent evidence" .
    welch,

    I'm sure you've never heard anyone on the left claiming a presidential election was stolen since 2016. It's not a good look for either right or left.

    Nor is a good look to ignore it when it happens, whether from left or right.
    What strikes me:

    (1) The US Constitution held up, through it all

    (2) The US Electoral College is creaky, but it does work. Not as well as I would like, but it works well enough that I doubt it will be changed to a popular vote system.

    (3) The US judicial system, from state to Federal, from the first levels that hear trials up through the state and US appeals courts, performed perfectly. Judges did their job of considering evidence, following precedents. As a returning history student, I have often considered the cluster of precedents an irritating cloud. Interesting to find that they are so useful as guides to logic, and used in all these decisions.

    Interesting to see, to have it proven, that we are not Hungary and not Poland. In both countries, a party won control of parliament and proceeded to pack courts with disciplined party followers who made the courts a part of the government bureaucracy, and the governing bureaucracy, and the government a simple piece of the party. (see articles by Gabor Halmai and Woyciech Sadurski in Constitutional Democracy in Crisis?). In the US and in the most important courts, judges do not seem to have 'D' or 'R' branded on their souls.

    As a demonstration, read the judicial rulings about this election. They are all gathered here: https://www.democracydocket.com/

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    dneal (December 7th, 2020)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    The delusion marches on, and the courts keep slapping it down.

    All disputes over electors must be resolved by tomorrow. Looks like we're gonna make that deadline.

    I won't bother quoting from these rulings today. Just a waste of time at this point.

    I actually don't want Rudy to die. Covid is beginning to look like a Biblical plague, or Thebian fate.

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    welch (December 7th, 2020)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    The delusion marches on, and the courts keep slapping it down.

    All disputes over electors must be resolved by tomorrow. Looks like we're gonna make that deadline.

    I won't bother quoting from these rulings today. Just a waste of time at this point.

    I actually don't want Rudy to die. Covid is beginning to look like a Biblical plague, or Thebian fate.
    As the Secretary of State of Georgia said this morning, "We have counted the votes three times and each time, Biden has won by 12,000 votes".

    In each suit that I've read, and I've checked nearly all of the swing states, judges weighed Trump Campaign, Inc, offerings, dismissed what they considered "inadmissable hearsay" (Nevada) or as opinion with no connection to data that could be verified (self-identified experts in fraud in Nevada), or as opinion based on nothing (Nevada, again), or as vague, or as based on a misunderstanding of election process, or as claiming that it was fraudulent for a Michigan county to hire a rent-a-truck with out-of-state license plates (a sample from an opinion in Michigan), or withdrawn by Trump Campaign, Inc. Best I remember, that happened in Pennsylvania or Michigan, when a judge cleared his throat loudly and reminded a lawyer to answer the judge's questions honestly. "We have no evidence of fraud at this time, your honor": one of the classic lines of the entire election.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    The delusion marches on, and the courts keep slapping it down.

    All disputes over electors must be resolved by tomorrow. Looks like we're gonna make that deadline.

    I won't bother quoting from these rulings today. Just a waste of time at this point.

    I actually don't want Rudy to die. Covid is beginning to look like a Biblical plague, or Thebian fate.
    As the Secretary of State of Georgia said this morning, "We have counted the votes three times and each time, Biden has won by 12,000 votes".

    In each suit that I've read, and I've checked nearly all of the swing states, judges weighed Trump Campaign, Inc, offerings, dismissed what they considered "inadmissable hearsay" (Nevada) or as opinion with no connection to data that could be verified (self-identified experts in fraud in Nevada), or as opinion based on nothing (Nevada, again), or as vague, or as based on a misunderstanding of election process, or as claiming that it was fraudulent for a Michigan county to hire a rent-a-truck with out-of-state license plates (a sample from an opinion in Michigan), or withdrawn by Trump Campaign, Inc. Best I remember, that happened in Pennsylvania or Michigan, when a judge cleared his throat loudly and reminded a lawyer to answer the judge's questions honestly. "We have no evidence of fraud at this time, your honor": one of the classic lines of the entire election.
    I do remember the judge reminding the attorney not to lie to a judge, which is a condition for suspension or disbarment.

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    welch (December 7th, 2020)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Kraken is sunk again.

    Judge Timothy Batten, a Federal judge in Atlanta, dismissed Sidney Powell's Kraken. For baseball fans keeping score, or for fountain pen users overseas who are curious about the US system, on Friday a Federal Appeals judge sent Sidney Powell's "Kraken" back to the district court, the first-line court, ruling that. She could not appeal a decision that had not been made. He reminded her that she was wasting her own time. Judge Batten, that judge, dismissed her case on grounds that it should have gone to a state court, first.

    Details:

    Batten did not rule on the merits of Powell’s claim, which were made on behalf of a slate of would-be Trump electors in the Electoral College.

    Instead, the judge granted motions to dismiss the lawsuit on the grounds that the suit did not belong in federal court.

    Batten repeatedly suggested that Powell could have filed her lawsuit in state court, and he cited an federal appeals court ruling that “federal courts don’t entertain post-election conduct, excuse me, contests about vote-counting misconduct.”

    Batten also said he found that the plaintiffs in the case did not have legal standing to bring the lawsuit.

    “In their complaint, the plaintiffs essentially ask the court for perhaps the most extraordinary relief ever sought in any federal court in connection with an election,” the judge said.

    “They want this court to substitute its judgment for that of 2.5 million Georgia voters who voted for Joe Biden, and this I am unwilling to do.”
    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/07/judg...rgia-loss.html

    Let's consider Judge Batten's statement: “In their complaint, the plaintiffs essentially ask the court for perhaps the most extraordinary relief ever sought in any federal court in connection with an election,” the judge said.

    “They want this court to substitute its judgment for that of 2.5 million Georgia voters who voted for Joe Biden, and this I am unwilling to do.”


    Again, a statement to be remembered.

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    Chuck Naill (December 7th, 2020)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    If it were baseball, the umpire would have already ejected somebody for arguing balls and strikes.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Kraken is sunk again.

    Judge Timothy Batten, a Federal judge in Atlanta, dismissed Sidney Powell's Kraken. For baseball fans keeping score, or for fountain pen users overseas who are curious about the US system, on Friday a Federal Appeals judge sent Sidney Powell's "Kraken" back to the district court, the first-line court, ruling that. She could not appeal a decision that had not been made. He reminded her that she was wasting her own time. Judge Batten, that judge, dismissed her case on grounds that it should have gone to a state court, first.

    Details:

    Batten did not rule on the merits of Powell’s claim, which were made on behalf of a slate of would-be Trump electors in the Electoral College.

    Instead, the judge granted motions to dismiss the lawsuit on the grounds that the suit did not belong in federal court.

    Batten repeatedly suggested that Powell could have filed her lawsuit in state court, and he cited an federal appeals court ruling that “federal courts don’t entertain post-election conduct, excuse me, contests about vote-counting misconduct.”

    Batten also said he found that the plaintiffs in the case did not have legal standing to bring the lawsuit.

    “In their complaint, the plaintiffs essentially ask the court for perhaps the most extraordinary relief ever sought in any federal court in connection with an election,” the judge said.

    “They want this court to substitute its judgment for that of 2.5 million Georgia voters who voted for Joe Biden, and this I am unwilling to do.”
    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/07/judg...rgia-loss.html

    Let's consider Judge Batten's statement: “In their complaint, the plaintiffs essentially ask the court for perhaps the most extraordinary relief ever sought in any federal court in connection with an election,” the judge said.

    “They want this court to substitute its judgment for that of 2.5 million Georgia voters who voted for Joe Biden, and this I am unwilling to do.”


    Again, a statement to be remembered.
    I appreciate your willingness to provide information knowing that it will have no effect on brainwashed Trump supporters. I mean, if Trump won I would want to know, but nothing at this point supports that view.

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    welch (December 7th, 2020)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    The chronic TDS is getting inflamed, which is strange since "your guy" won.

    129528255_10224820842286841_4015195854418100369_n.jpg

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The chronic TDS is getting inflamed, which is strange since "your guy" won.

    129528255_10224820842286841_4015195854418100369_n.jpg
    The BullShit Keeps Piling Up Trump's False Fraud Claims Has Offered No Evidence Whatsoever

    Trump's false hoods are creating dangerous precedent for future elections.

    By The Way How Did You like His Deposition Re Trump University....
    In the next several years he is going to be spending a lot of time in court.....

    dneal: Had no idea you were a member of the Algonquin Round Table. 'Tis phantasmagoric since Your Guy Won: Congratulations Pal.


    Fred

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Fred - I'm just stacking the BS on top of yours. You've been at it since the 2nd post of this thread. It doesn't make any sense (other than you keep indicating that everything is BS), but you do you.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I will say this, those yahoos with guns outside of elected officials' and judges' houses should have their guns taken from them and be given a good ass-kicking by some boys from Southie.

    Gun toting fools tend to suffer from small-man issues. The guns make them feel bigger.

    Their group is WSLM: White Sore Losers Matter

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I will say this, those yahoos with guns outside of elected officials' and judges' houses should have their guns taken from them and be given a good ass-kicking by some boys from Southie.

    Gun toting fools tend to suffer from small-man issues. The guns make them feel bigger.

    Their group is WSLM: White Sore Losers Matter
    Ooooh, I think this is the first time I've seen you in "tough guy" mode.

    You go girl!

    4phd8z.jpg
    Last edited by dneal; December 7th, 2020 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    One aspect of the Repubian complaint I do not understand it how they accept the wins while questioning the losses. I do not doubt that mistakes are made, but not enough to change the overall result. And, how do four or five states work together to throw the election?

    It should be obvious, for those who have studied Trump for the past five years is that he says things that are not grounded in reality. He reminds me of sales people who tell you the product is great, but has no real knowledge if it is or is not.

    I can only assume two things, those that believe Trump are not aware of his past or that they don't care if a liar is in charge.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    One aspect of the Repubian complaint I do not understand it how they accept the wins while questioning the losses. I do not doubt that mistakes are made, but not enough to change the overall result. And, how do four or five states work together to throw the election?

    It should be obvious, for those who have studied Trump for the past five years is that he says things that are not grounded in reality. He reminds me of sales people who tell you the product is great, but has no real knowledge if it is or is not.

    I can only assume two things, those that believe Trump are not aware of his past or that they don't care if a liar is in charge.
    Things might be clearer if you made an attempt to understand their argument before passing judgement on it, or making an assumption that presents a false dichotomy. There might be a third, fourth, fifth, etc... option that you haven't considered.

    The major mistake is a lack of "Strategic Empathy". It originates from Sun Tzu. Paraphrasing: “If you know the opponent and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the opponent, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the opponent nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” The second proposition probably explains best why people were shocked at the first Trump victory, and why they don't understand the totality of the current situation.

    The caricatures we see in this thread of "Trump supporters" simply demonstrates Sun Tzu's point, and that many have not bothered to objectively consider the other's perspective. I realize that by even considering the heretical question, one runs the risk of being considered a *gasp* "Trumpkin" by the liberal orthodoxy; but that's how intellectual honesty works. You examine the opposing argument fairly - or as EoC quotes Jon Szanto: "Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can..."

    If you're truly interested in rationale in how "four or five states work together to throw the election", I'll happily lay out the Republican argument. If it were the Democrat strategy (whether fraudulent or fair), it's actually quite brilliant. But based on your previous posts, I suspect you're not.

    When I see you post: "I have taken the position that I will only discuss with someone who is wanting a discussion and not an arguement", it appears to me that you consider "a discussion" one that does not offer a view that opposes your own. Maybe I'm wrong.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Ross Douthat on "Why Do So Many Americans Think the Election Was Stolen?
    Looking for the reasons behind a seemingly unreasonable belief."

    For those who have run through their NY Times free monthly articles:

    There have been few surprises this past month in how Donald Trump has dealt with the reality of his electoral defeat.

    Anyone familiar with his career could have predicted that he would claim to have been cheated out of victory. Anyone watching how he wielded power (or, more often, didn’t) as president could have predicted that his efforts to challenge the election results would be embarrassing, ridiculous and dismissed with prejudice in court. And anyone watching how the Republican Party dealt with his ascent could have predicted that its leaders would mostly avoid directly rebuking him, relying instead on the inertial forces of American democracy, the conscientiousness of judges and local officialdom, and Trump’s own incompetence to turn back his final power grab.

    So far, so predictable. But speaking as a cynical observer of the Trump era, one feature of November did crack my jaded shell a bit: not his behavior or the system’s response, but the sheer scale of the belief among conservatives that the election was really stolen, measured not just in polling data but in conversations and arguments, online and in person, with people I would not have expected to embrace it.

    The potency of this belief has already scrambled some of the conventional explanations for conspiratorial beliefs, particularly the conceit that the key problem is misinformation spreading downward from partisan news outlets and social-media fraudsters to the easily deceived. As I watch the way certain fraud theories spread online, or watch conservatives abandon Fox News for Newsmax in search of validating narratives, it’s clear that this is about demand as much as supply. A strong belief spurs people to go out in search of evidence, a lot of so-called disinformation is collected and circulated sincerely rather than cynically, and the power of various authorities — Tucker Carlson’s show or Facebook’s algorithm — to change beliefs is relatively limited.

    But what has struck me, especially, is how the belief in a stolen election has spread among people I wouldn’t have thought of as particularly Trumpy or super-partisan, who aren’t cable news junkies or intensely online, who didn’t even seem that invested in the election before it happened.

    Others have taken note of the same phenomenon: At National Review, Michael Brendan Dougherty writes that “friends who I did not know were political are sending me little snippets of allegations of voter fraud and manipulation.” At The American Mind, the pseudonymous Californian Peachy Keenan describes watching a passel of lukewarm Trump-supporter moms in her Catholic parish suddenly “get MAGAfied” by election conspiracy theories. (As a fraud believer herself, she thinks that’s a good thing.)

    Drawn from my conversations in the past few weeks, here’s an attempt at a taxonomy of these unlikely seeming fraud believers.

    The conspiracy-curious normie

    I say “normie” to reflect the reality that being open to the possibility of conspiracies is itself extremely normal and commonplace. There is nothing unusual, statistically speaking, about believing that a Cold War-era deep state assassinated John F. Kennedy or that the government is concealing evidence of U.F.O.s. Conspiracy theories are common among Democrats as well as Republicans: Witness the polling on Russia’s supposed tampering with vote totals in 2016 or George W. Bush’s supposed foreknowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks; recall the voting-machine theory spun to explain John Kerry’s narrow defeat in 2004.

    This means you don’t need a complex story about Facebook or Fox News to understand why a person who isn’t intensely political might nonetheless be open to the idea that an election settled by tens of thousands of votes in a few key states was actually fixed for the winner. That kind of openness is just human nature — and not the worst part of human nature, either, given that conspiracies and cover-ups exist (the military really has been hiding weird evidence of U.F.O.s!) and even wrongheaded theories often partake of a reasonable skepticism about elite malfeasance, from the Gulf of Tonkin era to the Jeffrey Epstein case.

    What’s happened in the past month with our open-minded normie, though, is that this openness has been validated by the president of the United States and his retainers in a way that other forms of conspiracy curiosity are not. There is a longstanding pattern in both political parties of gently encouraging conspiracizing. (The Diebold-stole-Ohio theories in 2004 were given oxygen by prominent congressional Democrats; MSNBC’s Russiagate coverage was not exactly cautious in the theories that it entertained.) But Trump is obviously different — higher-profile and more radical. He’s a president, not a cable-TV host or a congressman, and he’s shouting allegations, any allegations, with no pussyfooting, hedging or deniability involved.

    If you are biased against conspiracy theories, this shouting is ridiculous. If you’re somewhat open toward them, though, and somewhat right-of-center, it provides encouragement. It’s not that the curious normie listens to Trump and thinks that everything he says is true. It’s that Trump is providing validation for the belief that something might be true, that where there are so many claims of fraud a few might be accurate, that where there’s so much smoke there might be a blaze or two as well.

    Of course there are also lots of pure Trump loyalists who trust his claims absolutely, and a certain number of QAnon-type fantasists who embrace any theory no matter how baroque. But the voter-fraud narrative is pervasive on the right because you don’t have to be a loyalist or a fantasist to take something from Trump’s rants — not belief itself, but the permission to believe.

    The outsider-intellectual

    The next category of believer consists of extremely smart people whose self-identification is bound up in constantly questioning and doubting official forms of knowledge. Conservatism has always had plenty of this sort in its ranks, but the consolidated progressive orthodoxy in elite institutions means that more and more people come to conservative ideas because they seem like a secret knowledge, an account of the world that’s compelling and yet excluded from official discourse.

    This, in turn, instills a perpetual suspicion about anything that seems to have too much of a liberal consensus defending it, especially any idea that gets mocked and laughed at more than it gets rebutted. And it creates a strong epistemological bias toward what you can only find out for yourself, as opposed to what Yale’s experts or Twitter’s warning labels or The New York Times might tell you.

    In many cases the outsider-intellectual’s approach generates real insight. (Anonymous right-wing Twitter was way out ahead of the coronavirus threat, for instance, at a time when official liberalism was still fretting more about xenophobia than the virus itself.) But it also tends to recapitulate the closed-circle problems of the official knowledge it rejects.

    Thus the outsider-intellectual type looks at the no-voter-fraud consensus and immediately goes out in search of cracks in the pillar of official truth, anomalies that official certainty elides. A lot of the supposed evidence of fraud that circulates online comes from these efforts — not from grifts or lies (though grifters and liars do pick them up) but from sincere analyses of election data, which inevitably turn up anomalies here and there, which confirm the searchers’ assumptions, which closes the circle and convinces them that the official narrative is false and voter fraud is real.

    The recently radicalized

    This final camp includes many of the people reading and circulating the outsider-intellectual analyses — people on the right whose perceptions of what liberal institutions and actors are capable of doing have been altered by the coronavirus era.

    Many liberals have spent the Trump years worried about a kind of Reichstag Fire moment, a crisis that Trump might use as an excuse to consolidate authoritarianism. But a lot of conservatives experienced May and June of the Covid era as a mirror image of those anti-Trump fears — as a crisis that seemed to be deliberately exploited for revolutionary purposes by politicians and activists of the left.

    Their story of the spring and early summer starts with our country’s leaders and experts calling for unprecedented sacrifice, with lockdowns and closures that disproportionately affected small businesses, churches and families with children — all conservative-coded groups and institutions — while liberal professionals on Zoom were in better shape and the great powers of Silicon Valley expanded their influence and wealth. Then, based on a single activist-amplified case of police brutality, the same experts and politicians suddenly abandoned restrictions for the sake of left-wing protests … which the official media pretended were peaceful even when they cut a violent swathe through American cities … which included a wave of iconoclasm against key symbols of American history … even as a new ideological vocabulary seemed to suddenly take over elite institutions … and dissenting figures were purged … and in the background the world’s elites loudly announced that they were seeking a “Great Reset,” a post-coronavirus new world order.

    For the radicalized, all this felt stage-managed, prearranged — both as a further escalation in the establishment’s battle against Trump, a successor to the Mueller investigation and the impeachment push, and as an attempt to use the weirdness of the Covid situation to consolidate radical power within elite institutions. Experiencing and interpreting the summer of 2020 this way primed people to expect further escalation in the fall: After all, if liberals exploited a pandemic to stage-manage an ideological revolution, why wouldn’t they exploit all the weird features of pandemic voting to stage-manage the election outcome?

    No doubt some of my liberal readers will find this question too ridiculous to even merit an answer. You can’t argue someone out of a conspiracy theory, a common axiom goes, which means the only appropriate response to these ideas is condemnation and a kind of quarantine — to be achieved, presumably, through better Facebook algorithms, the comprehensive political defeat of the Republican Party and some sort of “have you no sense of decency, sir” courage from news anchors and political leaders whenever right-wing paranoia re-emerges.

    I don’t see any way that these efforts will work. (Certainly on the evidence of 2020, the Republican Party isn’t going anywhere, let alone about to be “burned to the ground” as some anti-Trumpers hoped.)

    Of course the alternative — actually trying to argue with people in the camps I’ve just described — may not work either, especially given the curated virtual realities that the internet increasingly enables us all to inhabit. But I’ve been argued in and out of a few outré theories in my life. (Only the best outré theories, I assure you.) And if you accept that there’s more reasoning involved in conspiracy theorizing than official wisdom suggests, then once such theories achieve a certain prominence, there’s an obligation to actually make the case against them rather than just laugh them away.

    My own attempts at argument have run as follows: To the conspiracy-curious Republican whose curiosity is validated by Trump’s allegations of fraud, I’ve suggested that the place to look for fire amid the smoke is in claims that the president’s lawyers are actually willing to advance in court, as opposed to in news conferences, semiofficial hearings and on Twitter. Those lawyers — especially now that it’s mostly just the Rudy Giuliani show — have every incentive to blow a fraud case wide open. If their legal claims don’t actually allege fraud or they fall apart under scrutiny, then so should your assumption that the president’s blustering must have some real-world correlative.

    To the outsider-intellectuals fascinated by anomalies in ballot counts or ballot return patterns, I’ve argued that anomalies indicating fraud would have to show up in the final vote totals — meaning some pattern of results in key swing-state cities that differ starkly from the results in cities in less-contested states, or some turnout pattern in a swing state’s suburbs that looks weird relative to the suburbs in a deep- blue or deep-red state. But where claims for those kinds of anomalies have been offered, they’ve turned out to be false. So until a compelling example can be cited, anomalies in the counting process should be presumed to be error or randomness, not fraud.

    Finally to the radicalized, I’ve tried to convey, based on my own knowledge of how liberal institutions work, that what looked stage-managed to outsiders in the May and June disturbances actually reflected organic upheaval and division, sincere antiracism and disorganized Trump-phobia, a crisis in the mind of liberalism, a dose of religious revival, plus a chaotic revolt by city-dwellers against a lockdown experience that fell heavily on them. Hypocrisy and radicalism alike there was in plenty, but literally nobody was in charge, except sometimes for activists in the younger generation who sensed a professional opportunity, and any supposed “plan” or “reset” was just a hapless attempt by elder statesmen to get woke. Put more succinctly: The liberal establishment that I watched stagger through May and June could not plan a sweeping voter-fraud conspiracy to save its life.

    Have I persuaded anyone with these arguments? Maybe not, and as a columnist for a noted establishment organ, I’m probably not the best person to make them anyway. That distinction belongs to people more enmeshed in the conservative universe, scribes for National Review and talk-radio hosts and conservative media critics, all of whom are the more important arguers for an intra-Republican debate.

    But I am certain that these issues are connected to a larger and more important question for the future of the right. At the moment, the voter-fraud narrative is being deployed, often by people more cynical than the groups I’ve just described, to help an outgoing president — one who twice lost the popular vote and displayed gross incompetence in the face of his administration’s greatest challenge — stake a permanent claim to the leadership of his party and establish himself as the presumptive Republican nominee in 2024. And it’s being used to push aside the more compelling narrative that the Republican Party could take away from 2020, which is that Trump’s presidency demonstrated that populism can provide a foundation for conservatism, but to build on it the right needs a very different leader than the man Joe Biden just defeated.

    That’s the most important argument for the next four years — and one I’ll be making firmly, passionately, right up until the Republican Party nominates Trump again in 2024.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/o...gtype=Homepage

  25. #279
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    To write so much and understand so little.

    It will take someone with a little longer memory of hanging chads and 2016's claims of a stolen election with Russian interference and a willingness to write clearly of the history of presidential politics/elections in the 21st century.


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    dneal (December 8th, 2020)

  27. #280
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I always thought pen people were a little more respectful and kindhearted than the average forum member. It seems many here are just petulant cry babies. Even some of the women are mean spirited. Maybe Live Leak would be more to your personalities.

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