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Thread: I Cannot Fathom This Election

  1. #101
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Linger View Post
    Thank you TSherbs. Your answer is more elaborate compared to what I intended to reply, which would have merely been: “yes”.


    yeah, I took more words than was necessary

    But, sometimes when you don't define your terms on the internet, someone comes along and retorts something like, "Isn't it just as delusional to believe that every voting machine worked exactly as it was supposed to?"

    So, I tried to be clear, even though the question wasn't entirely precise in what it was pointing to.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Some communicate better than others. The problem arises when your intent is to change other's opinions.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I've seen the brief news articles of votes being switched by the machines, trucks showing up at polling stations with boxes of ballots, observers being denied the ability to observe, etc... Like I said earlier, it makes for a good conspiracy theory.

    A couple of days ago, while browsing YouTube, Bloomberg Quicktake was airing the Pennsylvania hearings live. HERE is the link. It's almost 3 hours, and watched I 30 or 40 minutes of it.

    For the most part, the people testifying appeared to be sincere. I don't think they (or Trump) have to be either liars or delusional to suspect (or believe) something nefarious took place. The manner in which Biden won is pretty novel, securing enough votes with enough voter turnout in basically four cities to swing four states to his column. When is the last time a Presidential nominee won an election while losing Ohio and Florida? There is more circumstantial evidence, but coincidence doesn't mean conspiracy.

    What I find disturbing, and it only adds fuel to the conspiracy fire, is that the media is either ignoring or "hiding" claims. Labeling everything "Joe Biden is the projected winner" and "U.S. Elections are protected from fraud" does too. Media declaring certain points of view the approved canon, and blocking other views as heretical also exacerbates the problem. First it's any medical or expert opinion that doesn't agree with Fauci or the WHO on COVID earns blocks and/or locked social media accounts. Then they do the same thing with the Biden laptop issue. Now the election, and there's any wonder people have questions?

    Anyway, finding Gregory Stenstrom's testimony at the Pennsylvania hearing wasn't easy, but I did finally find this video. He seems to be a rational, thoughtful person with some seemingly valid complaints that if true should cause some concern.


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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...seemingly valid complaints that if true....
    ...and this is how conspiracy delusion begins...with "seems" and "if" statements....and then they solidify in some minds into "truth" and a nefarious grand plan....

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...seemingly valid complaints that if true....
    ...and this is how conspiracy delusion begins...with "seems" and "if" statements....and then they solidify in some minds into "truth" and a nefarious grand plan....
    Nothing like selective quoting, and extrapolating a point from introducing new context. You seem to have missed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal
    Like I said earlier, it makes for a good conspiracy theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal
    ...coincidence doesn't mean conspiracy.
    Out of curiosity, did you watch the video?

    Anyway, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there are shortcomings in the system which create the potential for fraud; they should be identified, discussed and rectified. Whether or not there was widespread fraud, and whether or not it changed the results of an election, is why we have a court system.
    Last edited by dneal; November 28th, 2020 at 02:26 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...seemingly valid complaints that if true....
    ...and this is how conspiracy delusion begins...with "seems" and "if" statements....and then they solidify in some minds into "truth" and a nefarious grand plan....
    Nothing like selective quoting, and extrapolating a point from introducing new context. Out of curiosity, did you watch the video?

    Anyway, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there are shortcomings in the system which create the potential for fraud; they should be identified, discussed and rectified. Whether or not there was widespread fraud, and whether or not it changed the results of an election, is why we have a court system.
    I'll read the evidence if it is ever actually produced in a courtroom. I am not a fan of news conference theatrics. That's the bullshit of conspiracy.

    Enough "ifs" for me. That is, by the way, exactly the kind of speculative stuff that has caused the judges to toss out so many cases. State boards review and certify their results. Which has been done. There is no meaningful fraud of any substantive value, for either side, in any state.

    When an actual lawyer in front of a judge according to the rules of the state bar actually presents some evidence of fraud or conspiracy to defraud, I will read it. But no, not this video. Nor any video in reaction to it.

  10. #107
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...seemingly valid complaints that if true....
    ...and this is how conspiracy delusion begins...with "seems" and "if" statements....and then they solidify in some minds into "truth" and a nefarious grand plan....
    Nothing like selective quoting, and extrapolating a point from introducing new context. Out of curiosity, did you watch the video?

    Anyway, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there are shortcomings in the system which create the potential for fraud; they should be identified, discussed and rectified. Whether or not there was widespread fraud, and whether or not it changed the results of an election, is why we have a court system.
    I'll read the evidence if it is ever actually produced in a courtroom. I am not a fan of news conference theatrics. That's the bullshit of conspiracy.

    Enough "ifs" for me. That is, by the way, exactly the kind of speculative stuff that has caused the judges to toss out so many cases. State boards review and certify their results. Which has been done. There is no meaningful fraud of any substantive value, for either side, in any state.

    When an actual lawyer in front of a judge according to the rules of the state bar actually presents some evidence of fraud or conspiracy to defraud, I will read it. But no, not this video. Nor any video in reaction to it.
    That's not a news conference. It's testimony to a Senate Committee. That testimony has prompted the Pennsylvania Legislature to consider exercising their power to appoint electors directly. The people in the video are those who signed affidavits. It's all the same evidence lawyers are submitting in their filings. I've got a link to the Sidney Powell's filing, but if you're not going to be bothered with 14 minutes of testimony from one witness (let alone the full 3 hours of testimony); I suspect you're not going to read 140 pages.

    Sounds to me like you're just admitting that your opinion is uninformed.
    Last edited by dneal; November 28th, 2020 at 03:09 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I just read the first 10 pages of the 104-pg document. It's not worth any more time from me. The ballot machine section starts the document and is entirely speculative. She offers no evidence that a single vote was changed. She in fact states that you can't see the changes. She only states that they "could be." That this document is 104 pages is not in itself impressive to me, nor has it been thus yet impressive to any judge. That's an argument called, "Please take our word for this spectral evidence." This did work in Salem in 1692. But so far, not in 2020.

    So, in final answer to the question from kazoolaw, no, I am not concerned about fraud in the voting machines.

    I predict that no states will decertify their results or push the election to a new slate of electors. What we have is a desperate lame duck president sowing his mistrust and persecution paranoia out among the populace, conning them all in their susceptibility. That's what con artists do. Mark Twain is rolling in his grave.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I read a couple of things this morning, already well publicised in the US.

    Apparently a gentleman named Fredric Eshelman donated $2.5M to "True the Vote" which promised to file lawsuits in seven swing States regarding voter fraud. However, they appear to have dropped that program for want of evidence (akin to 38 failures by Trump-blessed teams, and they having distanced themselves from Sidney Powell of kraken fame), so Mr Eshelman is suing for return of his whole $2.5M, on apparent grounds of no sufficient actions or prospects of success.

    Also, regarding affidavits:
    ... But calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here
    -- Judge Stephanos Bibas, 3rd US circuit Court of Appeals, writing for three Republican-appointed judges upholding a lower court's dismissal of Guiliani's purported case.

    I am always interested in some proper evidence.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Each time the Trump campaign has brought their evidence to court. different judges have asked a few questions, reminded the Trump lawyers that they could be disbarred for lying to a judge, and the evidence just evaporates. Case after case has been dismissed on grounds that Trump's lawyers presented no evidence. That happened in several counties in Pennsylvania and Michigan.

    Consequently, the Trumpist Republican Party in the Pennsylvania legislature zig-zagged around courts and judges. That's what we see in the video that dneal posted above at 2:55pm. For the rest of the world, it is junk. It is insanity. Find a copy of Glaber, Levinson, and Tushnet, Constitutional Democracy in Crisis. Last week, I read the chapters about Hungary and Poland. Trump is working hard, but has not yet "achieved" the one-vote-and-domination of Fidesz and Law and Justice. My guess: the Republican Party of the US is splitting between a conservative party that believes in reality, and a Trumpist QAnon faction that accepts lunacy.

    Long, long ago, when I first came to New York, I administered a psychiatric test to people being released from Bronx State Hospital. Two of the questions: (1) "Do you sometimes feel like, I don't know, maybe your're just walking down the street and you hear things that other people don't hear?" (2) "Sometimes, say, when you are walking on Southern Boulevard, does it seem like you see things that, maybe, other people don't see?"

    That is psychosis, and Trumpists show evidence of being psychotics.

    (Good luck, EU)
    Last edited by welch; November 28th, 2020 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Trump has stoked a resurgence of ugly racism in this country. There is no excuse for that. I do not care what your political beliefs or leanings are. But,when you start to do mental gymnastics to justify or ignore his racism, you are done as far as I am concerned. As a person of color its hurtful to hear people try to justify his racism. Recognize that it is white privilege that allows one to say that Trumps racist behavior is not as important as all the other positive things he has done. Don't care!!

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  18. #112
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I just read the first 10 pages of the 104-pg document. It's not worth any more time from me. The ballot machine section starts the document and is entirely speculative. She offers no evidence that a single vote was changed. She in fact states that you can't see the changes. She only states that they "could be." That this document is 104 pages is not in itself impressive to me, nor has it been thus yet impressive to any judge. That's an argument called, "Please take our word for this spectral evidence." This did work in Salem in 1692. But so far, not in 2020.

    So, in final answer to the question from kazoolaw, no, I am not concerned about fraud in the voting machines.

    I predict that no states will decertify their results or push the election to a new slate of electors. What we have is a desperate lame duck president sowing his mistrust and persecution paranoia out among the populace, conning them all in their susceptibility. That's what con artists do. Mark Twain is rolling in his grave.
    So you've read 10 percent of a filing, and your mind is made up? That sounds like you simply confirmed your preexisting bias.

    I'm not a Trump supporter, and I'm not a Trump hater. There are too many checks and balances in the system for any President to do much good or harm to the country. I am terribly disappointed in our media. I'll give a different example for this. Depending on the outlet, the SC "blocked" New York from limiting religious services. I read the opinion (all of them, to include the dissents). The SC approved an injunction preventing New York from limiting religious services until the lower court rules in the case. The dissents pointed out that New York had lifted their coding of the plaintiff's areas as "red", and said they should come back another day. The media is treating it like a Roe v Wade or Heller decision - one side decrying the ruling and the other cheering it. They haven't explained what actually happened.

    Similarly, depending on the outlet, team Trump is either a sore loser and there's nothing to see since there is absolutely zero evidence of fraud; or the President is going to win reelection by preventing Biden from reaching 270 electoral votes (then it goes to the House, and the Republicans have the pertinent majority). From MSNBC to Newsmax, and everything in between; there's nothing but opinion, slanted left or right. We essentially have no credible, objective news media.

    I watched most of the news event Giuliani and Co held a week or so ago. I saw no evidence presented - just accusations - so I waited for the filings. As noted earlier I happened across the Pennsylvania hearing, while it was live. I am not convinced that there is anywhere near the evidence required for Trump to prevail, and as I've said several times I fully expect for Biden to be inaugurated in January. There is definitely a lot of cause for concern in how future elections are held. Both Democrats and Republicans have previously warned of the danger of mail in ballot systems. Both Democrats and Republicans have warned of the dangers of electronic voting. In this election, we see all those warnings come to fruition. There is definitely evidence of negligence at best, and impropriety at worst. That undermines confidence in the system. It just happens to be the Republicans complaining this time. There is certainly opportunity for it to be Democrats in the future, as they have complained in the past when it didn't go there way.

    That's the pertinence of the testimony in the 7 minute video. It's the pertinence of the affidavits (given by both Democrats and Republicans). There are many flaws in the system we executed this year, and we should correct those before 2022. You'll note (if you were to read more than 10% of the filings) that the affidavits and testimony referenced in the filings aren't actually attached - presumably to provide some anonymity. That's why the video of the Pennsylvania hearing is important. You can hear from the affiants directly.

  19. #113
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    I read a couple of things this morning, already well publicised in the US.

    Apparently a gentleman named Fredric Eshelman donated $2.5M to "True the Vote" which promised to file lawsuits in seven swing States regarding voter fraud. However, they appear to have dropped that program for want of evidence (akin to 38 failures by Trump-blessed teams, and they having distanced themselves from Sidney Powell of kraken fame), so Mr Eshelman is suing for return of his whole $2.5M, on apparent grounds of no sufficient actions or prospects of success.

    Also, regarding affidavits:
    ... But calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here
    -- Judge Stephanos Bibas, 3rd US circuit Court of Appeals, writing for three Republican-appointed judges upholding a lower court's dismissal of Guiliani's purported case.

    I am always interested in some proper evidence.
    Just to be clear, the "Trump-blessed team" is lead by Rudy Giuliani. They haven't had 38 failures. There have been many other lawsuits from various parties that have been dropped, rejected or dismissed; for a variety of reasons from lack of standing, lack of evidence, to consolidate with a different suit (or prevent redundancy) or because they obtained relief outside the court.

    Also, the "distancing from Sidney Powell" (of an impeccable career as a Federal Prosecutor and successful defense of Michael Flynn fame) is a characterization by the left-er leaning media. The right varies on their theories as well, the most extreme being that she's assisting with a criminal case and therefore can't be in concert with the Trump team led by Giuliani. I find that a little far-fetched too.

  20. #114
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I just saw This Article posted on a different forum I frequent. While it is an opinion piece, it does lay out some of the peculiarities of this election concisely.

    Note the same site also has articles titled You don’t have to be crazy to think the election was stolen. But it helps and The Powell movement. The revolution is devouring its children, so there is some semblance of presenting each side of the aisle.

    Anyway, the first piece is quoted in almost its entirety, because paywalls...

    To say out-loud that you find the results of the 2020 presidential election odd is to invite derision. You must be a crank or a conspiracy theorist. Mark me down as a crank, then. I am a pollster and I find this election to be deeply puzzling. I also think that the Trump campaign is still well within its rights to contest the tabulations. Something very strange happened in America’s democracy in the early hours of Wednesday November 4 and the days that followed. It’s reasonable for a lot of Americans to want to find out exactly what.

    First, consider some facts. President Trump received more votes than any previous incumbent seeking reelection. He got 11 million more votes than in 2016, the third largest rise in support ever for an incumbent. By way of comparison, President Obama was comfortably reelected in 2012 with 3.5 million fewer votes than he received in 2008.

    Trump’s vote increased so much because, according to exit polls, he performed far better with many key demographic groups. Ninety-five percent of Republicans voted for him. He did extraordinarily well with rural male working-class whites.

    He earned the highest share of all minority votes for a Republican since 1960. Trump grew his support among black voters by 50 percent over 2016. Nationally, Joe Biden’s black support fell well below 90 percent, the level below which Democratic presidential candidates usually lose.

    Trump increased his share of the national Hispanic vote to 35 percent. With 60 percent or less of the national Hispanic vote, it is arithmetically impossible for a Democratic presidential candidate to win Florida, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico. Bellwether states swung further in Trump’s direction than in 2016. Florida, Ohio and Iowa each defied America’s media polls with huge wins for Trump. Since 1852, only Richard Nixon has lost the electoral college after winning this trio, and that 1960 defeat to John F. Kennedy is still the subject of great suspicion.

    Midwestern states Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin always swing in the same direction as Ohio and Iowa, their regional peers. Ohio likewise swings with Florida. Current tallies show that, outside of a few cities, the Rust Belt swung in Trump’s direction. Yet, Biden leads in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin because of an apparent avalanche of black votes in Detroit, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee. Biden’s ‘winning’ margin was derived almost entirely from such voters in these cities, as coincidentally his black vote spiked only in exactly the locations necessary to secure victory. He did not receive comparable levels of support among comparable demographic groups in comparable states, which is highly unusual for the presidential victor.

    We are told that Biden won more votes nationally than any presidential candidate in history. But he won a record low of 17 percent of counties; he only won 524 counties, as opposed to the 873 counties Obama won in 2008. Yet, Biden somehow outdid Obama in total votes.

    Victorious presidential candidates, especially challengers, usually have down-ballot coattails; Biden did not. The Republicans held the Senate and enjoyed a ‘red wave’ in the House, where they gained a large number of seats while winning all 27 toss-up contests. Trump’s party did not lose a single state legislature and actually made gains at the state level.

    Another anomaly is found in the comparison between the polls and non-polling metrics. The latter include: party registrations trends; the candidates’ respective primary votes; candidate enthusiasm; social media followings; broadcast and digital media ratings; online searches; the number of (especially small) donors; and the number of individuals betting on each candidate.

    Despite poor recent performances, media and academic polls have an impressive 80 percent record predicting the winner during the modern era. But, when the polls err, non-polling metrics do not; the latter have a 100 percent record. Every non-polling metric forecast Trump’s reelection. For Trump to lose this election, the mainstream polls needed to be correct, which they were not. Furthermore, for Trump to lose, not only did one or more of these metrics have to be wrong for the first time ever, but every single one had to be wrong, and at the very same time; not an impossible outcome, but extremely unlikely nonetheless.

    Atypical voting patterns married with misses by polling and non-polling metrics should give observers pause for thought. Adding to the mystery is a cascade of information about the bizarre manner in which so many ballots were accumulated and counted.

    The following peculiarities also lack compelling explanations:

    1. Late on election night, with Trump comfortably ahead, many swing states stopped counting ballots. In most cases, observers were removed from the counting facilities. Counting generally continued without the observers

    2. Statistically abnormal vote counts were the new normal when counting resumed. They were unusually large in size (hundreds of thousands) and had an unusually high (90 percent and above) Biden-to-Trump ratio

    3. Late arriving ballots were counted. In Pennsylvania, 23,000 absentee ballots have impossible postal return dates and another 86,000 have such extraordinary return dates they raise serious questions

    4. The failure to match signatures on mail-in ballots. The destruction of mail in ballot envelopes, which must contain signatures

    5. Historically low absentee ballot rejection rates despite the massive expansion of mail voting. Such is Biden’s narrow margin that, as political analyst Robert Barnes observes, ‘If the states simply imposed the same absentee ballot rejection rate as recent cycles, then Trump wins the election’

    6. Missing votes. In Delaware County, Pennsylvania, 50,000 votes held on 47 USB cards are missing

    7. Non-resident voters. Matt Braynard’s Voter Integrity Project estimates that 20,312 people who no longer met residency requirements cast ballots in Georgia. Biden’s margin is 12,670 votes

    8. Serious ‘chain of custody’ breakdowns. Invalid residential addresses. Record numbers of dead people voting. Ballots in pristine condition without creases, that is, they had not been mailed in envelopes as required by law

    9. Statistical anomalies. In Georgia, Biden overtook Trump with 89 percent of the votes counted. For the next 53 batches of votes counted, Biden led Trump by the same exact 50.05 to 49.95 percent margin in every single batch. It is particularly perplexing that all statistical anomalies and tabulation abnormalities were in Biden’s favor. Whether the cause was simple human error or nefarious activity, or a combination, clearly something peculiar happened.

    If you think that only weirdos have legitimate concerns about these findings and claims, maybe the weirdness lies in you.

  21. #115
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    I am always interested in some proper evidence.
    Just to be clear, ...
    No case (38 mentioned) has succeeded in changing any result nor even produced evidence for reasonable doubt. Still nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Also, the "distancing from Sidney Powell"...
    I look forward to Mayor Giuliani spearheading the legal effort to defend OUR RIGHT to FREE and FAIR ELECTIONS! Rudy Giuliani, Joseph diGenova, Victoria Toensing, Sidney Powell, and Jenna Ellis, a truly great team... -- Donald J Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Sidney Powell is practicing [sic] law on her own. She is not a member of the Trump Legal Team. She is also not a lawyer for the President in his personal capacity,” Rudy Giuliani Attorney for President Trump another lawyer for Trump, and Jenna Ellis, Trump Campaign Senior Legal Adviser and Attorney for President Trump.
    (My emphases)

    Why do you bother with these prevarications, when these things are published by the protagonists? Mentioning some new unknown which seems like it might explain it if, if, if?
    What if the explanation is simply that she is a crank? Some people say she is, I don't know, but many people say that and if she is that is very serious, and something needs to be done about it.

  22. #116
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    I am always interested in some proper evidence.
    Just to be clear, ...
    No case (38 mentioned) has succeeded in changing any result nor even produced evidence for reasonable doubt. Still nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Also, the "distancing from Sidney Powell"...
    I look forward to Mayor Giuliani spearheading the legal effort to defend OUR RIGHT to FREE and FAIR ELECTIONS! Rudy Giuliani, Joseph diGenova, Victoria Toensing, Sidney Powell, and Jenna Ellis, a truly great team... -- Donald J Trump @realDonaldTrump
    Sidney Powell is practicing [sic] law on her own. She is not a member of the Trump Legal Team. She is also not a lawyer for the President in his personal capacity,” Rudy Giuliani Attorney for President Trump another lawyer for Trump, and Jenna Ellis, Trump Campaign Senior Legal Adviser and Attorney for President Trump.
    (My emphases)

    Why do you bother with these prevarications, when these things are published by the protagonists? Mentioning some new unknown which seems like it might explain it if, if, if?
    What if the explanation is simply that she is a crank? Some people say she is, I don't know, but many people say that and if she is that is very serious, and something needs to be done about it.
    Like I said earlier, I'm disappointed with the media that can't just give us the straight news without the political spin (whichever direction that leans). Just a couple of weeks ago we had one news outlet claiming that Kushner was advising Trump to concede, and another claiming Kushner was advising Trump to fight it out.

    It's too early to say whether or not the suits from the President's team will be successful or not (although I think not). They just filed the main ones on what, Wednesday? One was dismissed by a district court because the evidence didn't show enough votes would have been changed to alter the outcome, and in another a judge issued an order that Pennsylvania couldn't certify their votes. The question will be whether or not the Supreme Court takes up any of the cases. The other question will be what legislatures (if any) do anything. It's going to be ugly one way or another, with half the country claiming the election was stolen - either by corrupt electoral commissions or corrupt judges (or legislatures). Honestly, the worst outcome for the Democratic party is probably that Trump loses his suits, the legislatures do nothing, and Biden is inaugurated. 2022 will likely be a bloodbath for them.

    Honestly, I've wondered if Sidney Powell is a crank. It's not her history, but it's plausible. Her otherwise respected history combined with some pretty serious (if not outrageous) claims play right into the conspiracists argument.

  23. #117
    Junior Member bunyip's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    The quickest and easiest thing to look up was this comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...when the polls err, non-polling metrics do not; the latter have a 100 percent record. Every non-polling metric forecast Trump’s reelection.
    Garbage.

    The first three I checked, using economic, market and unemployment data (all non-poll) from different entities all predicted a Biden win; one with the caveat that Trump would win on average turnout, Biden with high turnout, and there was high turnout.

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    Junior Member bunyip's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Honestly, I've wondered if Sidney Powell is a crank. It's not her history, but it's plausible. Her otherwise respected history combined with some pretty serious (if not outrageous) claims play right into the conspiracists argument.
    Your usually sound expression somehow fails when you wish to prevaricate again.

    It plays right into the case that she is herself a conspiracist.

    I've enough of this rubbish for now.

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  26. #119
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    The quickest and easiest thing to look up was this comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...when the polls err, non-polling metrics do not; the latter have a 100 percent record. Every non-polling metric forecast Trump’s reelection.
    Garbage.

    The first three I checked, using economic, market and unemployment data (all non-poll) from different entities all predicted a Biden win; one with the caveat that Trump would win on average turnout, Biden with high turnout, and there was high turnout.
    I'm not sure what the author or you are citing, but I'll concede that specific point for the sake of argument. It doesn't mean the rest of it is false though, and a lot of it isn't. There was a lot of weird shit that happened in this election. It could also be a perfect storm. Trump's team broke the "blue wall" in 2016. No one thought that would happen. Maybe Biden's team just outsmarted Trump and got an enormous amount of legitimate votes in key cities. Atlanta in particular is pretty believable for me.

    The main point of that piece is that it's not completely crazy to think something is up, given all the anomalies when compared to "usual" electoral strategies. It's what makes for such a clever conspiracy theory. It's plausible.

  27. #120
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Honestly, I've wondered if Sidney Powell is a crank. It's not her history, but it's plausible. Her otherwise respected history combined with some pretty serious (if not outrageous) claims play right into the conspiracists argument.
    Your usually sound expression somehow fails when you wish to prevaricate again.

    It plays right into the case that she is herself a conspiracist.

    I've enough of this rubbish for now.
    You know, I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation. If you want to be an asshole, I can play at that too. You'll get butthurt, others will pile on in your defense; and none of it will bother me in the least.
    Last edited by dneal; November 28th, 2020 at 08:29 PM.

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