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Thread: I Cannot Fathom This Election

  1. #61
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by A Smug Dill View Post

    If you insist. I already started my very first reply to you with, “I don't find him so objectionable per se,” so I don't how that is a case of “Orange man bad.” It's not a question of the man, but his behaviours that are unbecoming of a chief executive of any high-profile entity, let alone a Head of State. I don't care about his policies, by and large they have little direct impact on me; and I already said, “irrespective of his actual performance in the office,” when pointing out some of those ungracious and questionable behaviours.

    American international relations or actions (other than "hur dur, he's a joke"), can be made.
    Did I not specifically mention antagonising China, in a particularly immature and churlish way no less?

    It's not “Trump's a joke.” It's “USA run by Trump is a joke” to people outside. That's what makes him a bad President of the United States, without my needing to study his policies or assess the impact of such.

    There are plenty of policies that could be addressed. You choose not to.
    Yes, I choose not to. His administration makes USA look like such a joke that I don't have any interest in looking at his policies, to find in what ways the country may be going in “the right direction” nevertheless. That's part and parcel of the point I'm making. It's superficial, but it's not about the Orange man as an individual, albeit a powerful one; it's about how the country — either metonymically or synecdochically — is seen because of him.

    A CEO of a profitable company can still be considered a bad employee and bad Number One representative of the company, and pressured to resigned by the owners or Board of Directors, for public behaviours that tarnish the company's reputation in the public eye. The world is the public eye, in relation to a single country.
    Why continue with the reiteration? Orange man is bad. You admit your point is superficial. Got it.

    Steve Jobs was an asshole too. You can write him off at just that, or you can evaluate what he did and didn't do for the now trillion-dollar company.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Trump promised a wall, and did not deliver.
    Trump promised an infrastructure project, and did not deliver.
    Trump promised a health care plan, and did not deliver.
    Trump promised "great hirings," and spectacularly failed.
    Trump told the country that Covid would miraculously disappear in the summer, and this lie (he knew it was a lie) encouraged people to dismiss health regulations, and this disregard is now what had put this country in the terrible place it is: leading the world in positive cases and deaths.
    Trump has gutted the EPA and the CDC of their power to protect the country.
    Oh yeah, Trump was impeached for his behaviors while in office.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    One of the worst things Trump had done as president is added cred to the white supremacy movement in America. This movement lives without Trump, but his whistles and other statements brought them out onto the streets again en masse.
    Yes. While I doubt highly that Donald Trump is an actual racist, he has definitely created opportunity for racists to piggyback on many of his comments and policies, and opportunities for his opponents to label him. That incompetence in linguistics and self-awareness sows division, whether intentional or not, and a not-superficial example.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    It's tough to criticize a president in policy when he has basically never produced any. He has been a president with no policy but self-aggrandizement. He's appointed three SCJ, but this is the result of circumstance, not policy. And he got a tax bill through. This didn't crash the economy, but it doesn't help the middle class either.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Trump has been saying racist nonsense for decades.
    He lost a lawsuit over race in his hotels (I can't now remember if it was staff of clients).
    He lied repeatedly about the Central Park Five.
    He was the champion of the Obama racist birther lies.
    Trump is exactly what a racist white is. Personally. In the flesh. A racist white in positions of power to say and do things with prejudice and damage and ill will.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    It's tough to criticize a president in policy when he has basically never produced any. He has been a president with no policy but self-aggrandizement. He's appointed three SCJ, but this is the result of circumstance, not policy. And he got a tax bill through. This didn't crash the economy, but it doesn't help the middle class either.
    Here's his list of claimed accomplishments. There are several sites that "fact-check" these, with varying levels of objectivity; but looking at the list I see some I agree with and some I don't.

    His economic results are pretty hard to argue. The economy boomed pre-pandemic. That was good for a lot of people, from small business owners to large corporations. The middle class didn't benefit directly (meaning they didn't see immediate profit), but they did benefit through an expanded job market and 401k plans. Many saw a lower tax burden, although that was obscured by lower tax returns; and residents of some states saw their tax liability increase because they could no longer write off state taxes when preparing their federal returns.

    Moving the embassy to Jerusalem is hardly an achievement. I see that as a Kushner objective, and not one suited to stability in that region.

    Getting a $700B defense budget is nothing to brag about. We spend way too much money on defense (and that's coming from a guy who spent 32 years in the Army). We need to stop being the world's policeman, and I agree with withdrawing from Syria and Afghanistan (although the bureaucracy is slow-rolling both of those).

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Trump has been saying racist nonsense for decades.
    He lost a lawsuit over race in his hotels (I can't now remember if it was staff of clients).
    He lied repeatedly about the Central Park Five.
    He was the champion of the Obama racist birther lies.
    Trump is exactly what a racist white is. Personally. In the flesh. A racist white in positions of power to say and do things with prejudice and damage and ill will.
    Robert Byrd was a racist / white supremacist. The birther thing was stupid, but not necessarily racist.

    When a supposed white supremacist lets his daughter marry a Jew, achieves record levels of minority employment, and pushes legal reforms that benefit overincarcerated minorities; I have a hard time believing they're truly racists.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by A Smug Dill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Why continue with the reiteration? Orange man is bad.
    Because you continue to misrepresent my point. Feel free to say you disagree that the specific behaviours I noted are unbecoming of a Head of State. Feel free to say you don't think USA's image is tarnished on the world stage because of the President's antics. If you don't feel you're ready to dispute those two things, then I think my point has been made, and it's not “Orange man is bad”. Superficial as it may be, it is sufficient reason for me to conclude he's a bad President, irrespective of what he's like as a person or private citizen.
    I'm not disputing them. I specifically said I concede that argument. They're superficial, vapid, banal arguments; and you keep reiterating them. This is my last response to them.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    I'm not disputing them. I specifically said I concede that argument. They're superficial, vapid, banal arguments; and you keep reiterating them. This is my last response to them.
    It's just chat.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Ok, but why do you think they are shit policies? Just pick one if you like.
    Why? You asked specifically for reasons why I (or others) might consider Trump a bad president. I told you. Are you trying to create an echo argument? Not interested; it's not even the right topic, as you should know if you read the rest of my post carefully.

    Arising from a comment made by ASD, in what proportion of countries do you consider the USA's standing has risen in the last four years? You may include USA in the count, for the recent vote suggests it could lie among the negatives. Just curious.

    One point of "whataboutism".
    The point being that you appear not to have read my comments on that topic sufficiently carefully, for they are standalone. Whataboutism is a variant on tu quoque, and remains a logical fallacy. Assessment of actions is quite possible, and not helped by resort to that obfuscation.

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    Senior Member Freddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    The Beat Goes On ... The Beat Goes On

    Drums Keep Pounding A Rhythm To The Brain

    La De Da De De ... La De Da De Da

    1967

    My buddies are not 'Losers / Suckers'

    Fred
    Enjoyin' some Belvenie Quarter Century Old Single Malt Whiskey

    Both my brudda and I served in combat....

    I know who the Orange One Is And I ain't Gonna Waste My Time With It

    Adios.......Mike Foxtrot..................

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  23. #72
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Why? You asked specifically for reasons why I (or others) might consider Trump a bad president. I told you. Are you trying to create an echo argument? Not interested; it's not even the right topic, as you should know if you read the rest of my post carefully.
    If we're going to criticize each other for reading carefully, I would submit that you could also go back and see what I asked. I reiterated in an attempt to clarify in several responses. I'm genuinely curious. I'm trying to initiate a conversation. Like I noted, that seems impossible in today's climate; and your posts reinforce my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Arising from a comment made by ASD, in what proportion of countries do you consider the USA's standing has risen in the last four years? You may include USA in the count, for the recent vote suggests it could lie among the negatives. Just curious.
    I think most nations aren't happy with Trump, for a variety of reasons. I have a worldview on how countries act - usually in their self interest - that would detract from the topic at hand. I'm happy to discuss that sort of thing in another thread, if you like.

    To reiterate, I'm not asking about Trump's personality or his behavior. That's clear to everyone. I'm asking about his policies and his job performance as the executive branch of the U.S. government. I'm somewhat taken aback that some refuse to address that point, and it's like trying to nail jello to a tree to get an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    The point being that you appear not to have read my comments on that topic sufficiently carefully, for they are standalone. Whataboutism is a variant on tu quoque, and remains a logical fallacy. Assessment of actions is quite possible, and not helped by resort to that obfuscation.
    You either ignore or miss the point I made then. We'll just have to disagree on the appropriateness. The gist of tu quoque is still an accusation of hypocrisy. It is "A retort accusing an accuser of a similar offense or similar behavior." I did not do that. I did point out that other administrations did silly, embarrassing things, and that labeling the entirety of any administration because of that is superficial and without serious merit. That in fact is not tu quoque.

    Now would you like to get back to my actual question? I'm not interested in these deflections.

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  25. #73
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Concur with TSherbs

    Yes. While I doubt highly that Donald Trump is an actual racist, he has definitely created opportunity for racists to piggyback on many of his comments and policies, and opportunities for his opponents to label him. That incompetence in linguistics and self-awareness sows division, whether intentional or not, and a not-superficial example.[/QUOTE]

    B.S. Pal......................

    Fred
    Last edited by Freddie; November 26th, 2020 at 09:10 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Concur with TSherbs

    Yes. While I doubt highly that Donald Trump is an actual racist, he has definitely created opportunity for racists to piggyback on many of his comments and policies, and opportunities for his opponents to label him. That incompetence in linguistics and self-awareness sows division, whether intentional or not, and a not-superficial example.

    B.S. Pal......................

    Fred
    I'm not sure which you think is B.S. - that he's not an actual racist, or that he creates opportunities for racists?

    Either way, the invective isn't necessary. Maybe you should make your posts before you open the single malt. The earlier one makes absolutely no sense.

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  29. #75
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Concur with TSherbs

    Yes. While I doubt highly that Donald Trump is an actual racist, he has definitely created opportunity for racists to piggyback on many of his comments and policies, and opportunities for his opponents to label him. That incompetence in linguistics and self-awareness sows division, whether intentional or not, and a not-superficial example.

    B.S. Pal......................

    Fred
    I'm not sure which you think is B.S. - that he's not an actual racist, or that he creates opportunities for racists? He is and he does. Both.

    Either way, the invective isn't necessary. Maybe you should make your posts before you open the single malt. The earlier one makes absolutely no sense.
    Thank You!

    'Tis Fascinatin'.

    Fred
    Last edited by Freddie; November 26th, 2020 at 09:36 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Your attempt at a "conversation," dneal, has resulted in exactly that: a conversation. But then you asked ASD his opinion, which he then gave at length, and because he did not alter his opinion (which he is not expected to do in any "conversation"), you called his points "superficial, vapid, and banal." Now you say again that bunyip's replies suggest that a "conversation" is not possible, yet his replies were exactly that of a conversation. You are "conversing."

    It doesn't seem like you are interested in anything more than a fight with these two.

    You replied to me that "allowing" his daughter to marry a Jew indicated that he was not a white supremacist/racist. First, I am not sure what control he had over his daughter's choice of religion in her partner that Trump had. Maybe some. Maybe none.

    But more importantly, Trump's acceptance of Kushner and even his friendship with Netanyahu and Isreal are not indications that he is not a white supremacist or racist. Particularly when my examples were about African-Americans and Muslims (and of course, the birther slander against Obama was doubly wrong, because Obama was a long-standing Christian church goer--much more frequently than Trump has ever been). One can be a racist and love Isreal. One can be virulently racist against blacks and believe in the supremacy of "whiteness" and include Jews on the side of European Judeo-Christian supremacy. A racist against African-Americans (and Mexicans and Muslims) need not also be a racist against Jews. Unfortunately, racism and white supremacy come in many shades of evil, not just the absolute form that you seem to be suggesting. Should I add his repeated references to the "Kung Flu"?

    This isn't "bombast" (your term). This is racist language and racist policies (like his banning of refugees from many Muslim countries). Or the detention, separation, and caging of families at border detention centers. Trump is quite skilled at blending his personal racism with his public speaking and his national "policies" (I shudder to use that term for Trump, hollow as his policies are).

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I'll also add his recent "policy" of contesting these election results and accusing state election leaders and other (vague) persons of wide-spread fraud. This is not bombast; this is a degradation of our election system and a grab for power, either now or in the future. It is a policy of undermining confidence in the hard work and professionalism of thousands of poll workers and officials dedicated to a safe, secure, and accurate election. This is, again, the overlapping of a cynical, manipulative individual and cynical policy and official action while in office.

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  35. #78
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I'll also add his recent "policy" of contesting these election results and accusing state election leaders and other (vague) persons of wide-spread fraud. This is not bombast; this is a degradation of our election system and a grab for power, either now or in the future. It is a policy of undermining confidence in the hard work and professionalism of thousands of poll workers and officials dedicated to a safe, secure, and accurate election. This is, again, the overlapping of a cynical, manipulative individual and cynical policy and official action while in office.
    Hear! Hear!

    Fred

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  37. #79
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Your attempt at a "conversation," dneal, has resulted in exactly that: a conversation. But then you asked ASD his opinion, which he then gave at length, and because he did not alter his opinion (which he is not expected to do in any "conversation"), you called his points "superficial, vapid, and banal." Now you say again that bunyip's replies suggest that a "conversation" is not possible, yet his replies were exactly that of a conversation. You are "conversing."

    It doesn't seem like you are interested in anything more than a fight with these two.

    You replied to me that "allowing" his daughter to marry a Jew indicated that he was not a white supremacist/racist. First, I am not sure what control he had over his daughter's choice of religion in her partner that Trump had. Maybe some. Maybe none.

    But more importantly, Trump's acceptance of Kushner and even his friendship with Netanyahu and Isreal are not indications that he is not a white supremacist or racist. Particularly when my examples were about African-Americans and Muslims (and of course, the birther slander against Obama was doubly wrong, because Obama was a long-standing Christian church goer--much more frequently than Trump has ever been). One can be a racist and love Isreal. One can be virulently racist against blacks and believe in the supremacy of "whiteness" and include Jews on the side of European Judeo-Christian supremacy. A racist against African-Americans (and Mexicans and Muslims) need not also be a racist against Jews. Unfortunately, racism and white supremacy come in many shades of evil, not just the absolute form that you seem to be suggesting. Should I add his repeated references to the "Kung Flu"?

    This isn't "bombast" (your term). This is racist language and racist policies (like his banning of refugees from many Muslim countries). Or the detention, separation, and caging of families at border detention centers. Trump is quite skilled at blending his personal racism with his public speaking and his national "policies" (I shudder to use that term for Trump, hollow as his policies are).
    Like I said, I was asking about what makes him bad other than his personality. I used "bombast" to describe that, because that's how I think of him. Bombastic.

    I got lots of opinion of his bombast. I'm not interested in fighting, but I'm also not interested in running in circles. I tried to clarify my intent, to get back on course; but that appears an impossible task.

    Your posts have been more substantive, and I appreciate that. I don't know that I'm convinced, but that's ok. I'm simply describing the counter argument I (personally) consider when I think about the issue. I think everyone carries some bigotry, if for no other reason than in group / out group psychology. Let's use the Proud Boys for a moment. They're often labeled a white supremacist group. I heard it enough that I finally did some homework. There is not a doubt in my mind that it invites white supremacists, but I don't believe it was ever the intent nor is it the "official" position; particularly when the current leader of the group is a black man of Cuban descent. I think the same is the case with Trump. It's easy for racists to cheer "building the wall". By extension, it's easy to label Trump and those who support the wall as being motivated solely by race. But the fact remains that there are many societal and economic arguments, valid or not, that justify a wall and have nothing to do with race.

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  39. #80
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Your attempt at a "conversation," dneal, has resulted in exactly that: a conversation. But then you asked ASD his opinion, which he then gave at length, and because he did not alter his opinion (which he is not expected to do in any "conversation"), you called his points "superficial, vapid, and banal." Now you say again that bunyip's replies suggest that a "conversation" is not possible, yet his replies were exactly that of a conversation. You are "conversing."

    It doesn't seem like you are interested in anything more than a fight with these two.

    You replied to me that "allowing" his daughter to marry a Jew indicated that he was not a white supremacist/racist. First, I am not sure what control he had over his daughter's choice of religion in her partner that Trump had. Maybe some. Maybe none.

    But more importantly, Trump's acceptance of Kushner and even his friendship with Netanyahu and Isreal are not indications that he is not a white supremacist or racist. Particularly when my examples were about African-Americans and Muslims (and of course, the birther slander against Obama was doubly wrong, because Obama was a long-standing Christian church goer--much more frequently than Trump has ever been). One can be a racist and love Isreal. One can be virulently racist against blacks and believe in the supremacy of "whiteness" and include Jews on the side of European Judeo-Christian supremacy. A racist against African-Americans (and Mexicans and Muslims) need not also be a racist against Jews. Unfortunately, racism and white supremacy come in many shades of evil, not just the absolute form that you seem to be suggesting. Should I add his repeated references to the "Kung Flu"?

    This isn't "bombast" (your term). This is racist language and racist policies (like his banning of refugees from many Muslim countries). Or the detention, separation, and caging of families at border detention centers. Trump is quite skilled at blending his personal racism with his public speaking and his national "policies" (I shudder to use that term for Trump, hollow as his policies are).
    Like I said, I was asking about what makes him bad other than his personality. I used "bombast" to describe that, because that's how I think of him. Bombastic.

    I got lots of opinion of his bombast. I'm not interested in fighting, but I'm also not interested in running in circles. I tried to clarify my intent, to get back on course; but that appears an impossible task.

    Your posts have been more substantive, and I appreciate that. I don't know that I'm convinced, but that's ok. I'm simply describing the counter argument I (personally) consider when I think about the issue. I think everyone carries some bigotry, if for no other reason than in group / out group psychology. Let's use the Proud Boys for a moment. They're often labeled a white supremacist group. I heard it enough that I finally did some homework. There is not a doubt in my mind that it invites white supremacists, but I don't believe it was ever the intent nor is it the "official" position; particularly when the current leader of the group is a black man of Cuban descent. I think the same is the case with Trump. It's easy for racists to cheer "building the wall". By extension, it's easy to label Trump and those who support the wall as being motivated solely by race. But the fact remains that there are many societal and economic arguments, valid or not, that justify a wall and have nothing to do with race.
    And ... The Beat Goes On

    Fred

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