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Thread: I Cannot Fathom This Election

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    For those keeping score at home, if your home is not in the US, here are the dates of the next steps in the US Presidential election, Roughly:

    - Between now and December 8, states will certify the vote counts

    - December 14: the Electoral College meets to hold the official election

    - Early January: the US Congress meets to accept the results from the Electoral College

    - January 20, noon: Joe Biden is sworn in as 46th President

    (Today, Georgia finished its re-count.) Details in the article from the NY Times:

    https://www.nytimes.com/article/us-e...gtype=Homepage

    Details,
    So long life to Joe, and Donald, please, when leave the White House, leaves everything in good order

    Alfredo

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    Junior Member bunyip's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by alfredop View Post
    ... Donald, please, when leave the White House, leaves everything in good order

    Alfredo
    From a distant observer, good luck with that one.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Looks like now Trump is beginning to let go. Over thirty suits failed, some of which were pathetic, and the judge would say so. If you ever wondered if Trump hired "great people" (as he claimed repeatedly), we have all witnessed over the last three weeks how untrue that is (over the last four years, really). Trump even recently tweeted that this election was the "most corrupt in US history." What a bald lie.

    Where is Corniche now with his incredulity at the possibility of a "tight" race???

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Where is Corniche now with his incredulity at the possibility of a "tight" race???
    Not logged on since 6 November.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Well, turns out he was right. It wasn't close!

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    If Trump is filing baseless, frivolous lawsuits, then he should be personally liable for paying the costs.

    "If" -- hahaha sigh.
    _____________
    To Miasto

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Ah, I've known Corniche for almost fifteen years. He is the one who discovered the ingredients of Solv-X. Found Parker's patent that includes what makes it. It is someplace on FPN -- another reason to like that place. In spite of politics, he is a good guy.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    My first C-Language program put "Hello, world!"

    Now Biden says, "America is back".

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...719_story.html

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    If Trump is filing baseless, frivolous lawsuits, then he should be personally liable for paying the costs.

    "If" -- hahaha sigh.
    Trump also has stated that Presidents have absolute immunity from criminal prosecution and absolute pardon powers, even to pardon himself. Yeah, been a rough time of you've looked for leadership with ethical principle.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    If Trump is filing baseless, frivolous lawsuits, then he should be personally liable for paying the costs.

    "If" -- hahaha sigh.
    Trump also has stated that Presidents have absolute immunity from criminal prosecution and absolute pardon powers, even to pardon himself. Yeah, been a rough time of you've looked for leadership with ethical principle.
    Kind of hard to pardon yourself for crimes you haven't been prosecuted for (yet). There's also the pardoner-pardonee issue. As I understand it, this represents two individuals and thus cannot be documented as being the same person in both instances.
    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    If Trump is filing baseless, frivolous lawsuits, then he should be personally liable for paying the costs.

    "If" -- hahaha sigh.
    Trump also has stated that Presidents have absolute immunity from criminal prosecution and absolute pardon powers, even to pardon himself. Yeah, been a rough time of you've looked for leadership with ethical principle.
    Kind of hard to pardon yourself for crimes you haven't been prosecuted for (yet). There's also the pardoner-pardonee issue. As I understand it, this represents two individuals and thus cannot be documented as being the same person in both instances.
    I suppose that you are right, but these "facts" don't keep the Donald from claiming the "authority." It's what he do. (Obama hits three-pointers).

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    The point is, though, that after Jan 20th he will no longer be president and will not have that authority. So I guess that means he cannot pardon himself for anything he gets taken to court for after that date? Asking for a friend.
    Be a little more open into accepting other viewpoints, if you can, as it really deepens the experience. - Jon Szanto

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    The thing about this election for me is that I'll be interested in the court proceedings from a Constitutional perspective. There are several dates and procedures that can't be gotten around (well, I suppose the Supreme Court can "interpret" their way around some, but with 1/3 of the Court already being "strict Constitutionalists"... it's unlikely). There are differing State laws, and different arguments that could make for some interesting results. We haven't had a President determined by the House since John Quincy Adams, I believe. I doubt that we'll see this sort of thing, and fully anticipate that Joe Biden will be inaugurated in January; but hey... stranger things have happened!

    The other thing about this election (and perhaps the Trump Presidency) is how far each side has withdrawn into their camps / echo chambers. Rational, polite discussion is essentially impossible. Although some argue this began during the Reagan Presidency, and the Bork and Thomas judicial nominations; it seems to me that this began when the Republicans took the House during Clinton's first mid-term, and that was the first time in 60 years or so that the GOP held power in the Congress. The political climate has steadily declined since. Four years ago, one side was screaming that the election was illegitimate due to "Russian Collusion". Now the other is claiming mass fraud.

    Exacerbating these echo chambers is the media (both mass and social). Liberals nod knowingly as their champions spin their opinions, and Conservatives do similarly with theirs. Someone in the center is labeled a "libtard" or "Trumpkin" by either side for not following the orthodoxy. There is clearly evidence (how convincing remains to be seen) that there were irregularities during this election. The right thinks it's concrete and the left asserts "nothing to be seen here". Social media is labeling every post related to the election with something along the lines of "Biden is the projected winner", or "there are safeguards to American elections".

    I don't know why there's an effort to stifle debate. It's a healthy thing in a democracy. If anything, it convinces some of the true nefarious intent of the media (and god knows what else that might be happening by the illuminati or skull and bones type Rothschilds-ean organization... more currently labeled the "deep state"). Why in the world exacerbate the conspiracy theories by blocking/cancelling/censoring reasonable points of view (even if they're wrong)?

    The general inclination here seems to be toward the more liberal perspective, but when I read some of the comments I wonder if people really believe the over simplistic hyperbole they type. I have plenty of criticisms of Trump. His personality is an easy target, but there are many of his policies I disagree with too. There are many that I do agree with as well. He's hardly a tyrant, "literally Hitler", or whatever other banal accusation the far left makes.

    So a question for those who find him so objectionable. Specifically, what (other than his bombast) do you think makes him a bad President? And as a followup, what makes you think Joe Biden will be a good one (if you think that)?
    Last edited by dneal; November 25th, 2020 at 08:32 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Ok, so you mostly addressed the bombast. I'm not sure about his hiring / firing practices, or that they were particularly unorthodox in comparison to other administrations. That always brings scandal/intrigue. Are there one or two in particular that you're referencing?

    --edit--

    You edited, so I'll add a bit. I don't think Trump is the cause of the divisiveness. That goes back well before his time. I agree he contributes to it.
    Last edited by dneal; November 25th, 2020 at 08:57 PM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Let's not get pedantic. Bombast also means "pretentious inflated speech or writing". Synonyms are: bluster, brag, braggadocio, etc... There's plenty to complain about, but again that's easy pickin's...

    I'm not a fan of Kushner, or his advising his father in law. I wasn't a fan of Hillary being put in charge of "Hillarycare" during her husband's administration. But that's superficial. Kushner also got three peace deals signed with Israel. That's tangible.


    As for Trump's hiring and firing within the administration. I agree it doesn't look good, but "looking like a circus" is superficial criticism too. One could say the Obama administration "looked like a bunch of amateurs" when they gave the Prime Minister of the U.K. a stupid DVD collection, and followed that up with giving the Queen an ipod on a state visit. Is that how we want to characterize the entirety of the Obama admin? A bunch of amateurs? It's just vapid.

    People in the cabinet serve at the pleasure of the President. Literally. Trump has just shown the painful truth of that. But that just gets back to the fact that his behavior is distasteful, and agree or not it just isn't a substantive argument. Appearances are important, but they're not the purpose of the executive. A more specific criticism would be that I didn't agree with hiring John Bolton. He's a hawk that thinks American foreign policy should be militant (literally). He played a large role in persuading President Bush to invade Iraq. I'm glad his tenure in the Trump administration was short.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by A Smug Dill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    One could say the Obama administration "looked like a bunch of amateurs" when they gave the Prime Minister of the U.K. a stupid DVD collection, and followed that up with giving the Queen an ipod on a state visit. Is that how we want to characterize the entirety of the Obama admin? A bunch of amateurs? It's just vapid.
    Now that's outright ‘whataboutism’. You wanted to hear others' thoughts on how Trump is a bad President. Whatever Obama, Clinton or Bush did has no relevance, unless you want to argue that Trump's missteps are forced errors under the burden of former presidencies' sins.
    Yes, it is "whataboutism" to illustrate a point. In both cases, they are superficial arguments.

    You're deflecting from the actual point. I don't blame you for not being familiar with Trump's actual policies. Most Americans aren't either. That's why I asked the question - because the most people can come up with is some variation of "Trump's an asshole". Fine, I concede that point. Now let's talk about black unemployment. Let's talk about the merits or disadvantages of cutting the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%. Let's talk about U.S. oil production. Let's talk about renegotiating NAFTA. Let's talk about NATO. Something that isn't twitter or facebook level of "gotcha" analysis.

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  32. #57
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Specifically, what (other than his bombast) do you think makes him a bad President?
    Shit policies (some listed), apparent corruption (not exonerated by investigation), evident incompetence (see SARS-COV-2 and consequent death rates and economic impacts)

    And as a followup, what makes you think Joe Biden will be a good one (if you think that)?
    If I were to think that, then possibly I could imagine he has slightly less shit policies? He might die and Kamala Harris take over and she might be better? Should I know? Read further for clarification.

    The problem here is that in later posts you have gone on to present, apparently approvingly, several policies of the soon-to-be-deleted President while making no mention of alternative policies which might have been beneficial, nor mention of actual (nor your desired) social and economic consequences. That is, I see no sign other than the common case that people defend their assumptions. How is this breaking down the polarisation which appeared first to motivate your query?

    I live in another country. America affects us just like China does. I have no control over what happens in those places and our government little more. However, I am very happy with our greater irreligiousness, superior health care, and high standard of living, amongst other things, despite seeing a need for further change. YMMV.

    Tomorrow, as today, we (and our general economy) will go out with little need of masks, with only ordinary precautions, and without a record of > 20,000 deaths we might have had proportionally with the American population. Good luck.

    By the way, admitting that you are using a whatabout or tu quoque argument does not lend it merit beyond the zero with which it started.
    Last edited by bunyip; November 26th, 2020 at 03:31 AM. Reason: expresson

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by A Smug Dill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    In both cases, they are superficial arguments.

    You're deflecting from the actual point.
    Let me reiterate: the actual point, in answer to your question, is that I think Donald Trump is a bad President because he makes the USA look like a sad joke to the rest of the world. Maybe Obama, Clinton and Bush all did too; if so, you could say they were therefore bad Presidents too, as if that has any relevance to the question you asked. It doesn't make Trump any better as the Head of State.

    You asked for others' thoughts. I gave you mine. You don't need to convince me that Trump isn't so bad; I'm not a US citizen and not a voter. I'm not arguing that he's a bad President and hope to convince you; I just think what I think.
    *sigh*

    I didn't ask to be convinced if Trump was a bad President, and I'm not trying to convince anyone he's not. I'm simply asking for reasons beyond the superficial. You're merely demonstrating my point about simplistic hyperbole, and keep reiterating variations of "Orange man bad..."

    There are plenty of more relevant points that can be made, even if you're not a citizen. American international relations or actions (other than "hur dur, he's a joke"), can be made. Trump's policy on pulling out of Afghanistan. His policy of pulling out of Syria. His effort to get NATO countries to spend 2% of their GDP in accordance with the treaty. His pulling out of the Paris climate accord. There are plenty of policies that could be addressed. You choose not to.

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  36. #59
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Shit policies (some listed), apparent corruption (not exonerated by investigation), evident incompetence (see SARS-COV-2 and consequent death rates and economic impacts)

    And as a followup, what makes you think Joe Biden will be a good one (if you think that)?
    If I were to think that, then possibly I could imagine he has slightly less shit policies? He might die and Kamala Harris take over and she might be better? Should I know? Read further for clarification.

    The problem here is that in later posts you have gone on to present, apparently approvingly, several policies of the soon-to-be-deleted President while making no mention of alternative policies which might have been beneficial, nor mention of actual (nor your desired) social and economic consequences. That is, I see no sign other than the common case that people defend their assumptions. How is this breaking down the polarisation which appeared first to motivate your query?

    I live in another country. America affects us just like China does. I have no control over what happens in those places and our government little more. However, I am very happy with our greater irreligiousness, superior health care, and high standard of living, amongst other things, despite seeing a need for further change. YMMV.

    Tomorrow, as today, we (and our general economy) will go out with little need of masks, with only ordinary precautions, and without a record of > 20,000 deaths we might have had proportionally with the American population. Good luck.

    By the way, admitting that you are using a whatabout or tu quoque argument does not lend it merit beyond the zero with which it started.
    Ok, but why do you think they are shit policies? Just pick one if you like. I listed some examples without "apparent approval", and have not indicated my desires. I noted polarization, not a desire to break it down here. There are many assumptions being made in your post.

    One point of "whataboutism". That's about hypocrisy. It's not, in and of itself, some logical fallacy. "Whataboutism" is when you argue something like "It's ok for Trump to be incompetent because Obama was incompetent". That's not what I did. Quite the opposite, in fact. I gave examples of another administration to illustrate that superficial arguments are just that - superficial. Claims otherwise are just rhetoric to get away from the point. Otherwise any comparison of administrations could be dismissed as "whataboutism". Want to compare Jeffersonian and Jacksonian policies? Nah, that's just "whataboutism"...

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    One of the worst things Trump had done as president is added cred to the white supremacy movement in America. This movement lives without Trump, but his whistles and other statements brought them out onto the streets again en masse.

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