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Thread: I Cannot Fathom This Election

  1. #81
    Junior Member bunyip's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    If we're going to criticize each other for reading carefully, I would submit that you could also go back and see what I asked. .... I'm genuinely curious. I'm trying to initiate a conversation. Like I noted, that seems impossible in today's climate; and your posts reinforce my opinion.
    Your precise question was, again:
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    So a question for those who find him so objectionable. Specifically, what (other than his bombast) do you think makes him a bad President? And as a followup, what makes you think Joe Biden will be a good one (if you think that)?
    You asked, I answered as a courtesy, thinking you wanted to hear. That post, in its entirety, stands perfectly well for the present situation. It appears to me that you will find ample sources in your country to discuss the merits or otherwise of Trumpist actions, as well as opinion pieces in overseas press from people whose job it is to consider the USA (not my job).

    The gist of tu quoque is still an accusation of hypocrisy. It is "A retort accusing an accuser of a similar offense or similar behavior." I did not do that. I did point out that other administrations did silly, embarrassing things, and that labeling the entirety of any administration because of that is superficial and without serious merit. That in fact is not tu quoque.
    Adding a layer of indirection does not help. The base case of "You did X" -- "But you did Y (or X)" is unchanged by varying "you" to "he" or "they". You specifically granted that you were engaged in whataboutism and repeat it in the part I have quoted here. Nobody else said that so any case by you that it is vapid falls against you as the sole proponent of it.
    Did the Trump administration do silly, embarrassing (several other adjectives come to mind) things? Might you rebut that on its merits rather than claiming by whataboutery that it is inconsequential? Or will you just agree and move on? ASD told you what he thought, exactly as requested. You don't seem to like it.

    We'll just have to disagree on the appropriateness.
    Very well. Good night.

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  3. #82
    Senior Member fountainpenkid's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    OMGGG
    Yes, he "stokes" a number of ugly sentiments that linger in people, often knowingly. He is irrefutably a crude thinker and a callous and morally depraved man. But those are unfortunately at the bottom of my list for why he is one of the worst presidents we've had to date.
    What matters are the policy outcomes...and they are terrible on the basic metric of protecting and advancing the interests of Americans:
    1. He has A KUBRICK ELEVATOR's worth of blood on HIS (yes, his own tiny ones) hands for continuously, knowingly choosing a dangerously delayed and inadequate national response to the pandemic. Unforgivable. May he rot in hell. (I say this as someone with post-acute COVID myself)
    2. He has taken significant action to degrade the environment--well past abandoning climate change measures, which are HUGE, but down to the basic public safety shit like hey, let's not let companies pollute water/air with mercury
    3. DeVos as education secretary: "fuck you, poor people trying to get an education and becoming entangled with the for-profit scam! come out and play, fraudsters!" oh, and "let's stop caring that black children are subject to significant discrimination when it comes to disciplinary action, and we were studying that and trying to help schools understand how to mitigate this systemic issue that has significant long term effects on a person's life" whatevs!
    (many many more)
    50?.He promotes anarchists and breakdown of the basic systems of government, over and fucking over again. I'm tired of writing this shit out....but let's just say, his behavior of the last few weeks is in character. To my mind, refusing to support the democratic system is the last straw. The very last one! You can be the shittiest motherfucker you want in office, but if we can't throw you out, we have nothing...the government is no longer, even in the most charitable view, by and for the people. His behavior post-election behavior is the first of it's kind (i.e not directly affecting any person immediately) that has made my physically sick.

    So yeah, fuck this whole character thing. I WISH I could be focused on the fact that he's been accused of sexual assault, that he's a creep, a fraud, expresses racist sentiments etc. But oh, the actions!
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; November 26th, 2020 at 10:29 PM.
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  5. #83
    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Trump has been talking up election fraud for many months, obscuring the more important fraud of voter suppression. He might not have invented voter suppression, but he and his people tried like a Mike Foxtroter to use those tactics against their perceived opposition base.

    I don't like how the GOP stopped Obama from appointing a SCJ and how the SC is now stacked against liberal (not leftist) positions, such as the unrelenting attack on Roe v. Wade. Side note: November Foxtrot Whiskey a woman candidate would have survived the interview if she had cried -- especially about drinking beer.

    One good thing about Trump and his administration is that the corruption is transparent. I don't doubt that corruption is intrinsic to politics, but there is no ignoring it. Which... I kindv miss, cos I have enough Sierra in my life that needs immediate attending to every goddamn day.

    Speaking of which ... My friend has returned from the blood test portion of her chemo appointment, so I can't finish my thoughts at the moment.
    _____________
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    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    P.S. Nods to Freddie for the alphabet thing.
    Last edited by ethernautrix; November 27th, 2020 at 09:21 AM.
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    To Miasto

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Oh yeah, Trump was impeached for his behaviors while in office.
    No, actually he wasn't. Articles of impeachment were brought and Trump was acquitted.

    Clinton had Articles of Impeachment brought and was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Also added (with a nod to fountainpenkid): withdrawal from the Paris climate accord. Trump has mocked wind power (stupidly, really) and had been quite generally opposed to the idea of regulation and protection of environment (versus resource development). The recent denial by the army corps of engineers of the Alaska project is an interesting exception to the prior pattern. Trump has undercut national parks and other public land protections, and the EPA and the Clean Air/Water act--all of which I consider erroneous long-term policy decisions. I believe that our grandchildren's future depends on our strict regulations of environmental degradation and resource management. I think that the top half of Americans have to learn to do with less comfort and luxury and consumption or the whole system will collapse into chaos. Better that we have controlled reduction rather than free-market freefall.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Oh yeah, Trump was impeached for his behaviors while in office.
    No, actually he wasn't. Articles of impeachment were brought and Trump was acquitted.

    Clinton had Articles of Impeachment brought and was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice.
    Fair enough. But both results were the same, right? Both impeachments were approved in the House but acquitted in the Senate? Clinton was not successfully "impeached," either. (You seem to suggest a difference in the two outcomes here, I think).

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    You are correct. Clinton was also acquitted by the Senate, and also remained in office.

    Clinton agreed to a suspension of his Arkansas law license for 5 years, and was fined $25,000. He also resigned from the Bar of the US Supreme Court.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    You are correct. Clinton was also acquitted by the Senate, and also remained in office.

    Clinton agreed to a suspension of his Arkansas law license for 5 years, and was fined $25,000. He also resigned from the Bar of the US Supreme Court.
    Yeah, lawyers lying under oath have more consequences. That's why, thus far, the lawyers for Trump, when in a courtroom in front of a judge, have been singing a different tune from what they say outside in front of cameras. So far. Desperation often produces the dishonesty. Even for lawyers.

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  19. #90
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I just don’t get that lots of people don’t get it. “Massive election fraud” is the same as “we didn’t land on the moon, it was faked in a Hollywood studio”. How many thousands of individuals would have to synchronize their lies ad infinitum. Without a single one saying it didn’t happen (as in there was no election fraud, and we didn’t fake it in a Hollywood studio). It simply defies all logic. How can any sane person believe in those conspiracy nonsense?

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Linger View Post
    I just don’t get that lots of people don’t get it. “Massive election fraud” is the same as “we didn’t land on the moon, it was faked in a Hollywood studio”. How many thousands of individuals would have to synchronize their lies ad infinitum. Without a single one saying it didn’t happen (as in there was no election fraud, and we didn’t fake it in a Hollywood studio). It simply defies all logic. How can any sane person believe in those conspiracy nonsense?
    America's ability to delude itself sometimes is astonishing. Our sense of exceptionalism has never been based on "truth" or intelligence. Indeed, we have a very strong anti-intellectual streak in our national ethos.

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  23. #92
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    I love a good conspiracy theory. This "election fraud" has just enough circumstantial evidence to sell. It's not convincing at this point, but it's pretty clever. It's certainly as plausible as "Russian Conspiracy" we put up with (and spent tens of millions on). People had no problem believing that one, so I have to agree with TSherbs that America's ability to delude itself is indeed astonishing.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Well, that ability to delude oneself is not exclusive to the USA though...perhaps the scale is though..
    how many Americans are part of/believe in the “flat earth society”? One and half million? Potential voters?

    (apologies for me gloating...we in NL have our own, very distinct and very present issues...our senate of 100 seats currently houses 14 (f o u r t e e n !!!) different fractions of parties...try to get legislation past that...)

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Yes, parliamentary democracies have their own special challenges!

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    [QUOTE=fountainpenkid;309342]OMGGG
    Yes, he "stokes" a number of ugly sentiments that linger in people, often knowingly. He is irrefutably a crude thinker and a callous and morally depraved man. But those are unfortunately at the bottom of my list for why he is one of the worst presidents we've had to date.
    What matters are the policy outcomes...and they are terrible on the basic metric of protecting and advancing the interests of Americans:

    Quite interesting that when I talk to folk who support his policies, particularly those who have small businesses and have benefited from the economic polices, then the fact that "He is irrefutably a crude thinker and a callous and morally depraved man" immediately climbs to the top of my list of why he is one of the worst presidents....
    Last edited by corgicoupe; November 28th, 2020 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Linger View Post
    I just don’t get that lots of people don’t get it. “Massive election fraud” is the same as “we didn’t land on the moon, it was faked in a Hollywood studio”. How many thousands of individuals would have to synchronize their lies ad infinitum. Without a single one saying it didn’t happen (as in there was no election fraud, and we didn’t fake it in a Hollywood studio). It simply defies all logic. How can any sane person believe in those conspiracy nonsense?
    America's ability to delude itself sometimes is astonishing. Our sense of exceptionalism has never been based on "truth" or intelligence. Indeed, we have a very strong anti-intellectual streak in our national ethos.
    So those expressing concerns over, for example, the voting machines are delusional?

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Brian View Post
    I agree with Corniche, Mentally, Biden who has never been the brightest bulb in the box is clearly having mental, memory and focus issues. No wonder Harris agreed to be his VP, despite the mean and nasty accusations she threw at him earlier this year.
    Personal ambition will always top party loyalty or national interest!
    America has almost elected a confused, tired old man incapable of handling the extreme demands of the White House!
    Sad for a large nation with millions of more talented and younger people.
    For me, I find he is someone with whom I can identify. He has suffered what I consider the greatest loss a husband and father can experience. He has known both defeat and victory. Does that make him a great president? I'll just say that we have experienced the exact opposite.

    Also, for me, I am not looking for perfection in performance, but I do hold leaders to a measure of having a moral center. Lincoln, FDR, and Reagan were not without flaws, but each had a moral center. People need something bigger than their own opinions as a guide.

    However, you can follow whoever you wish.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by A Smug Dill View Post

    As it turned out, it simply was CLOSE — on election day and the 48 or so hours that followed — until it wasn't, and Biden won.

    Close, in context, is a matter of objective numbers and not subjective values. There is no “should” in either forecasting or reviewing the outcome.

    I don't think it's appropriate for foreigners to tell us how to run our country/election.
    I neither intend nor pretend to do so, as a foreigner. Fortunately, objective facts (in accordance to governing rules) are there for all to see and agree on, no matter how much it elates or pains them individually that events didn't play out differently. I still think it's perfectly fine that someone now says, “My guy got beaten, by the rules of the game all must respect, irrespective of perception of merit. I wanted a different outcome, but the majority of my peers were against it. So be it; they have spoken. Until next time!”
    I am very pleased you care enough to comment. I do not care for labeling someone a foreigner. I mean, I know what it means, but we all inhabit the same sphere and our actions can impact the globe if the an immoral person has power.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Linger View Post
    I just don’t get that lots of people don’t get it. “Massive election fraud” is the same as “we didn’t land on the moon, it was faked in a Hollywood studio”. How many thousands of individuals would have to synchronize their lies ad infinitum. Without a single one saying it didn’t happen (as in there was no election fraud, and we didn’t fake it in a Hollywood studio). It simply defies all logic. How can any sane person believe in those conspiracy nonsense?
    America's ability to delude itself sometimes is astonishing. Our sense of exceptionalism has never been based on "truth" or intelligence. Indeed, we have a very strong anti-intellectual streak in our national ethos.
    So those expressing concerns over, for example, the voting machines are delusional?
    The Hugo Chavez, Venezuelan company thing??

    If "expressing concerns" means "believing that there was a conspiracy through the voting machines that defrauded the US electorate and gave Biden a 6-million vote and 70-point electoral vote victory," then, yes, I consider those "concerns" delusional. Even belief in any part of that statement is delusional.

    Trump, for example, has stated that because he lost, the vote of his 73 million persons who voted for him was "stolen." That is either a manipulative lie or straight up delusion. Take your pick. Even state your pick here.

    Trump also stated that there was a conspiracy to defraud him because big pharma ran ads against him. What a laughably stupid piece of logic that is. Again, he is either a manipulative liar or he is delusional. Take your pick.

    And for anyone else to repeat these pieces of rhetoric is either, as I say, a manipulative liar or delusional person. Believing in them by itself is delusional.

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    Default Re: I Cannot Fathom This Election

    Thank you TSherbs. Your answer is more elaborate compared to what I intended to reply, which would have merely been: “yes”.

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