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Thread: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turquoise View Post
    The pH value of inks is not all about the paper. The alkalinity or acidity of the ink can affect the pen itself, particularly if the pen is older or vintage. Richard Binder has a great article about this here http://www.richardspens.com/ref/care/inks.htm and one on pH values of ink (albeit 4 years old) here http://www.richardspens.com/ref/care/ink_ph.htm

    Personally I believe Mr. Binder's post and comments are erroneous. I believe it's the effect of residue inks in the pens, which then reacting with Noodler's or any other inks have caused those effects.... It's the same tiring discourse on Iron gall fountain pen inks....

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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baisao View Post
    So if the ink is highly acidic and dries it might be assumed to be inert, but it is saturated through the cellulose of the paper and is activated by ambient humidity. Once activated it would start breaking down the cellulose of the paper.

    Why is this not a problem? I want my writing to last as long as possible. Not because I am important, perhaps because I am not.

    Coming from the world of film photography and wet prints where many of us are concerned with conservation, I find it odd that no one is concerned about the conservation of their writing (or their vintage pens). There’s a bias against Noodler’s but that bias is a non sequitur to what I am asking. There is still an issue with ink acidity even if people don’t like Noodler’s owner.
    I recommend you reading these chapters from the following site:
    https://irongallink.org/igi_index24a5.html

    In essence what they say is that ink corrosion while exists is few and far in between...and it happens only if:

    Paper was exposed to high humidity, mechanical handling or that the paper was of poor quality......
    So basically, use good paper, keep them in a dry place, and don't look at your notes too often....

    Here's a video that shows how in 14 days high humidity degrades material:



    Another solution is accepting that the only certain thing is that everything will decay, die and transforms. Maybe some mediation

  4. #23
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Smug Dill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Baisao View Post
    I find it odd that no one is concerned about the conservation of their writing (or their vintage pens).
    I would venture that it isn't exactly a case of “no one is concerned”, but it is certainly uncommon, let alone in the majority, today and not something anyone has reason to believe is the average fountain pen user's requirement from either an ink product or the application of such by default.

    I, for one, don't care about either conservation or preservation of my handwritten content. I look at it from an analytical viewpoint. I'm the primary stakeholder when it comes to retrieval and review of the my handwritten content, somewhere down the line; and I can't name anything that I expect I ‘need’ or want to look up (by going through boxes or piles of journals, notebooks or notepads) and re-read on paper in ten years' time, and that failure to do so will create distress, anguish or pain. My wife is the other major stakeholder, and she hasn't expressed any information requirements for ten or twenty years hence. I don't know of any other relevant stakeholders in the context, and nobody else's requirements matter when I do my personal writing; so why would I be unduly concerned about the long-term preservation and legibility of the marks I make with my pen?

    In any case, I already have — and use — a number of pigment inks that I know will preserve legibility well enough beyond our natural lifetimes, although my main concern is defence against moisture causing the ink marks to smudge or erased, not whether undue exposure to moisture would do more damage by (triggering) destruction of the paper or cause mold to grow on the substrate, etc.

    As for the fountain pens themselves, I'd venture that iron-gall inks were common enough in the day when the “vintage pens” were made and used by their original owners; if they weren't overly concerned about what those inks did to their writing instruments and private property, especially back in the era of “one man, one pen” — when it was more important for someone to maintain access to his only tool(s) for fulfilling a particular common functional application such as writing on paper, less he couldn't do in a timely manner what was required — then neither should current owners of old items that are no longer so critical in fulfilling their handwriting needs. I wouldn't be particular distressed if an ink stained, corroded or otherwise damaged my (not cheap but also not that expensive) Aurora 88 Minerali piston-filled demonstrator, so why would I be concerned at all what it does to some cheaper pens made in the middle of the 20th Century that I may have picked up somehow?
    Dii good to see you here, welcome

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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    If anyone has the patience, another interesting text on why and how the Declaration of independence is almost unreadable :
    https://www.archives.gov/publication...ll/declaration

    Basically high humidity and being moved here and there, being rolled and unrolled, light exposure and dodgy conservation practices.....
    Last edited by Yazeh; November 8th, 2020 at 01:38 PM.

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    Senior Member Ole Juul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Another solution is accepting that the only certain thing is that everything will decay, die and transforms. Maybe some mediation
    That's in keeping with West Coast native tradition regarding totem poles. When they became old and unstable, they were laid down with a spiritual reconnection to the earth ceremony so they could continue their return back to the earth. To me this represents acceptance of reality and the rules of nature.

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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Another solution is accepting that the only certain thing is that everything will decay, die and transforms. Maybe some mediation
    That's in keeping with West Coast native tradition regarding totem poles. When they became old and unstable, they were laid down with a spiritual reconnection to the earth ceremony so they could continue their return back to the earth. To me this represents acceptance of reality and the rules of nature.
    Truly beautiful tradition. Thanks for sharing that

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    Member Baisao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Another solution is accepting that the only certain thing is that everything will decay, die and transforms. Maybe some mediation
    Ha! Well, please do not mistake me for Ozymandias. I’ve spent 32 years actively sitting. To me it comes down to the gratitude I feel now towards the people who cared for materials from the past and knowing that someone will feel this same gratitude in the future. In the most profound iteration, there have been healing, familiar voices from the past that let me know I am not alone. In the most banal iteration, it’s finding cuneiform receipts for a livestock. I am grateful for these things and feel that people will be grateful in the future, yet don’t know what flotsam they’ll be grateful for. I feel we should do our best to preserve our thoughts against the lottery of time. Yes, impermanence is unavoidable and applies to all things but to do nothing when we have the means is selfish.
    Last edited by Baisao; November 8th, 2020 at 03:15 PM.

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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baisao View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Another solution is accepting that the only certain thing is that everything will decay, die and transforms. Maybe some mediation
    Ha! Well, please do not mistake me for Ozymandias. I’ve spent 32 years actively sitting. To me it comes down to the gratitude I feel now towards the people who cared for materials from the past and knowing that that someone will feel this same gratitude in the future. In the most profound iteration, there have been healing, familiar voices from the past that let me know I am not alone. In the most banal iteration, it’s finding cuneiform receipts for a livestock. I am grateful for these things and feel that people will be grateful in the future, yet don’t know what flotsam they’ll be grateful for. I feel we should do our best to preserve our thoughts against the lottery of time. Yes, impermanence is unavoidable and applies to all things but to do nothing when we have the means is selfish.
    Beautifully expressed..... Then all I can say, is that if it is meant to be, the future historians will be delighted to discover your notebooks..... Mine I doubt, as more often than not, I shred them in spring cleanings

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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Olé Juul posted another enlightening link about Cotton vs Wood based paper in the chat box..... If you want your writing to be eternal you need to change paper to non wood based paper, basically cotton paper.


    Here's a most interesting thread. But I must put a warning note. Warning this thread contains ideas which start you down the perfect paper rabbit hole. Users be advised

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    Golden Ghost Chemyst's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Why so few pH Neutral Inks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baisao View Post
    Which brings me to an interesting question: if we care enough for pH neutral paper, why are there so few FP neutral inks?
    I'd start by mentioning that pH isn't something inherently bad that needs to be contained or acted against. It is a chemical property that affects many things and no particular value is better in all situations.

    Your question is analogous to asking why more cities don't purposely site themselves in deserts. Low rainfall, reduced rusting, predictable weather, solar power opportunities... Surely, desert cities are the pinnacle of urban planning?

    There are many, many, many advantages to avoiding locking yourself into a narrow pH band as an ink manufacturer:

    • If you are using dyes to get your colours, dyes are most vibrant at particular pH's. Dyes are also particularly soluble at certain pH's. Both effects are protonation driven and can't really be adjusted to work at the (wrong | neutral) pH.
    • If instead, you are using pigments to get your colours, you'll have to contend with both engineering challenges and marketing challenges to make your ink work effectively.
    • If you are tying yourself to narrow pH band around that of natural waters and blood, say 6.3-8.0, you'll have to contend with the legions of organisms that are adapted to live in those conditions. Now you need to find a poison that will kill off living stuff but not affect your solution chemistry.
    • If you are artificially trying to lock the pH in over the long-term, you need to buffer the solution to prevent air or solution components from affecting the pH. That's another series of chemicals you need to test for compatibility before you dump them into your carefully tinted ink.
    • Choosing to use a small pH band also locks you out of using historical recipes or traditional colourants such as Prussian blue. You'll spend a lot of time trying to recreate a particular hue.


    Certainly, all of the above can be overcome. It just depends on what your goals are. If you can make a pH neutral ink, but it fades on the page in a matter of weeks, have you won? If you can make a pH neutral ink, but only in a few boring shades, is that useful?

    ETA: As an aside, the archival gold standard is carbon black ink on linen paper. Museums have been running that longitudinal test for centuries. If long-term legibility and preservation is your goal, that is the way to go.
    Last edited by Chemyst; November 30th, 2020 at 07:35 PM.

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