FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

[eachan]

I just love when a guy speaks up for the women 'cause the poor little things can't speak for themselves.

[TSherbs]

I just love when a guy speaks up for the women 'cause the poor little things can't speak for themselves.

?? They did speak.

The snark and toxic tone of threads and posts here has driven many people away over the years. This is a complaint about FPG over at FPN (when it is open). People just don't like the nasty tone and personal turn toward disparagement that threads can take here, especially after about page 2.

[Sailor Kenshin]

The thing about female members leaving because they didn't feel safe is just sheer nonsense.

I will assume that you weren't confided in about it.

Is it that you think that I am lying (making this up), or that you just cannot understand why anyone one, in particular a woman, would feel unsafe around some of the language used on threads and some of the private messages that they received? When a woman confides to me that she does not feel safe around some of the language and behavior of men, I tend to accept the feeling and not call it "sheer nonsense."

I am female. And of a certain age. I really, really dislike reading (or hearing) certain words. It's not that I feel 'unsafe.' But it is distasteful.

[ethernautrix]

Screenshot_20201121-194436_Netflix.jpg





I just wanted to put this somewhere but didn't want to begin a thread. It's a screenshot from the whimsical zombie Netflix show Santa Clarita Diet.

I have fond memories of some rollicking good discussions and digressions at fpn. My participation started to wane when my comment praising someone's spunk (spunky personality - which I liked!) was disappeared. I witnessed when the Dark Lord snorted (it seemed) that he "could do this all day!" (argue incessantly with frequent reference to his Loser's Debate Manual, something like that. And then a moderator made him disappear. Hehehe. Stupid stuff. (I've met both that mod and the Dark Lord, so they aren't just pixels on a screen. Still, rollicking good time!)

I don't have a point, really. I'm grateful for FPN, cos I met probably hundreds of people and enjoyed thousands more conversations because of it. I witnessed a few of the instances when folks were arbitrarily banned with no explanation, so I understand the resentment. At least one person was banned - a gentle character who had been only ever helpful and non-confrontational - for asking a question about clarifying some new rules.

Pen Posse was rooted in FPN, cos that's where I kept posting about meetings until it became... established. So, I'm not going to wish FPN bad luck.

My position about posting on the Internet is this (I think it's a Chinese parable, not sure): "If someone calls you a dog, check to see if you have a tail. If you don't, everything is fine."

[eachan]

I just love when a guy speaks up for the women 'cause the poor little things can't speak for themselves.

?? They did speak.

The snark and toxic tone of threads and posts here has driven many people away over the years. This is a complaint about FPG over at FPN (when it is open). People just don't like the nasty tone and personal turn toward disparagement that threads can take here, especially after about page 2.

I can understand ( and support) dislike or disgust, but fear? What is there to be afraid of? Is an FPG thug going to jump down the phone-line?
I've enjoyed our discussion, TSHerbs, but it isn't going anywhere. You're making a case for a moderator here but convincing the members won't help. It will only happen if the owner of the forum decides to make it happen.

I like the forum the way it is. I wouldn't mind a moderator if he was of the quality of Ron Zorn, who only intervenes in the most extreme of circumstances and only contributes to give the most excellent of advice, but moderators of his quality are rare indeed.

[eachan]

The thing about female members leaving because they didn't feel safe is just sheer nonsense.

I will assume that you weren't confided in about it.

Is it that you think that I am lying (making this up), or that you just cannot understand why anyone one, in particular a woman, would feel unsafe around some of the language used on threads and some of the private messages that they received? When a woman confides to me that she does not feel safe around some of the language and behavior of men, I tend to accept the feeling and not call it "sheer nonsense."

I am female. And of a certain age. I really, really dislike reading (or hearing) certain words. It's not that I feel 'unsafe.' But it is distasteful.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Jon Szanto]

Ok, here's a charming development. I'll discuss it right here in this thread, where I've now noticed it, since we don't have any mods:

I've just logged in, checked this thread, and see every post I've looked at has received "Thanks" from a member who just joined the forum: FuckJohnSzanto.

I mean, seriously - what am I, or anyone, to make of this? As Ether just suggested, I took a look and I don't have a tail. I don't really have any idea why someone would do this, as I don't believe it is warranted, but there you go. It's 2020, alright.

I'll take a day or two off of the forum and see if anything changes. Have a good day, friends.

[azkid]

When a woman confides to me that she does not feel safe ... I tend to accept the feeling...

I do too, now, having come to better understand over the last few years some very unfamiliar experiences and perspectives shared with me.

I am finding that truly listening to others for the sake of gaining understanding is the best way to span the chasms of difference and distrust that can grow between people.

[TSherbs]

Yeah, sorry, Jon. Same old crap circling around. Can someone with some pull get this taken care of?

[An old bloke]

I've been around both forums for years and am now a member of both. What I take from that experience is that forums are about content, nothing else. The presence or absence of moderators only matters if that presence or absence gets in the way of the content and I have seen both of those things happening. My main interest is British pens and FPN has never done that well. For a long time there was no British pens section, only Conway Stewart, and the moderators drove all the expertise out. There is a British section now but those who were kicked out remain banned. That's an example of moderation getting in the way of content and, indeed, spoiling it.

The absence of moderators here was never really a problem until this year. There have been a number of people this year who have asserted their right to be as obnoxious as they chose to be, Ptero being just the latest example. A moderator would certainly have been useful on those occasions but at the cost of the freedom that has been at the heart of the success of Fountain Pen Geeks.

As you might guess, I'm not especially fond of moderators because some of them become very heavy-handed and intrusive and spoil the content. Who moderates the moderators?

Hear, hear.

I am currently a moderator for two forums completely unrelated to anything discussed here. I was invited to moderate them because of the reputation I had earned moderating another forum. I mention this only to say I know of which i speak.

The first unwritten rule for moderators is that the website or forum is not his or hers even if he or she pays for it. Forums belong to the membership.

The second unwritten rule is that he or she should be as invisible as possible. That it that while he or she may participate, offer content expression and governance should be minimal and impartial.

Thirdly moderation requires acceptance. There will be opinions expressed that may be unpopular and even unwelcome. Digressions, a genuine feature of any real discussion, will occur. Both should be tolerated, and at the same restrained IF they become offensive, a complete distraction, or wander completely off topic with no apparent attempt to return

Beyond that, moderators functions are to prevent trolls from becoming a nuisance, and to do what they can to keep the forum an enjoyable place for its members.

I am also a Moderator on another forum, it is my experience that members appreciate some moderation and a control against the trolls, the posts that are to flame, or should that be inflame, the name calling and persons who will not accept the opinions of others and their right to express those opinions without hindrance and therefore deliberately cause antagonism and confrontation.

We have all seen examples of that type of behavior within FPG in recent times and this would appear, in my opinion, to be a failing.

I agree completely.

[An old bloke]

Ethernautrix, I loved the quote (My position about posting on the Internet is this (I think it's a Chinese parable, not sure): "If someone calls you a dog, check to see if you have a tail. If you don't, everything is fine.") you offered. Thank you.

I suppose in the name of levity I should ask, do we all recognise that much of the last four or five pages has been a digression discussing the appropriateness of one's choice of language, and whether moderation is a good or bad thing?

So, returning to the topic, who wants to bet that FPN will be back up by mid-week, and who, like me, will continue to participate in both forums?

[TSherbs]

Ethernautrix, I loved the quote (My position about posting on the Internet is this (I think it's a Chinese parable, not sure): "If someone calls you a dog, check to see if you have a tail. If you don't, everything is fine.") you offered. Thank you.

I suppose in the name of levity I should ask, do we all recognise that much of the last four or five pages has been a digression discussing the appropriateness of one's choice of language, and whether moderation is a good or bad thing?

So, returning to the topic, who wants to bet that FPN will be back up by mid-week, and who, like me, will continue to participate in both forums?

I will! Gladly....

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Ok, here's a charming development. I'll discuss it right here in this thread, where I've now noticed it, since we don't have any mods:

I've just logged in, checked this thread, and see every post I've looked at has received "Thanks" from a member who just joined the forum: FuckJohnSzanto.

I mean, seriously - what am I, or anyone, to make of this? As Ether just suggested, I took a look and I don't have a tail. I don't really have any idea why someone would do this, as I don't believe it is warranted, but there you go. It's 2020, alright.

I'll take a day or two off of the forum and see if anything changes. Have a good day, friends.

While Jon and I often do not see eye to eye on much these days, I cannot fathom the depth of iniquity that inspires someone to denigrate another person in this way. Nobody deserves this kind of treatment, least of all Jon.

[XYZZY]

CS,

But, the principle is the same. And to offer open arms to the needy, is a gift beyond measure.

I'm not certain I can adequately express my humble thanks for this post. I've had a very difficult time with many of the things occurring in the world at the moment, in the last weeks and months, and am unsure if my motivations and actions are still sound. You give me hope that I haven't totally lost my way, and that my desires for all of us in a troubled era still resonate.

You have my gratitude.

Best,
Jon

Jon, I appreciate your contributions. Not just here... you're a wise poster on FPN. And perhaps I recognize you mostly from r/fountainpens which I don't visit much anymore, but where you always provided calm, intelligent, "adult supervision".

[An old bloke]

Ok, here's a charming development. I'll discuss it right here in this thread, where I've now noticed it, since we don't have any mods:

I've just logged in, checked this thread, and see every post I've looked at has received "Thanks" from a member who just joined the forum: FuckJohnSzanto.

I mean, seriously - what am I, or anyone, to make of this? As Ether just suggested, I took a look and I don't have a tail. I don't really have any idea why someone would do this, as I don't believe it is warranted, but there you go. It's 2020, alright.

I'll take a day or two off of the forum and see if anything changes. Have a good day, friends.

While Jon and I often do not see eye to eye on much these days, I cannot fathom the depth of iniquity that inspires someone to denigrate another person in this way. Nobody deserves this kind of treatment, least of all Jon.

I have to say that to go to the effort of creating an account with such a name solely for the purpose of posting it as a 'thanks' to so many posts exhibits a level of immaturity and vitriol disdain that borders on the irrational.

[TSherbs]

I just love when a guy speaks up for the women 'cause the poor little things can't speak for themselves.

?? They did speak.

The snark and toxic tone of threads and posts here has driven many people away over the years. This is a complaint about FPG over at FPN (when it is open). People just don't like the nasty tone and personal turn toward disparagement that threads can take here, especially after about page 2.

I can understand ( and support) dislike or disgust, but fear? What is there to be afraid of? Is an FPG thug going to jump down the phone-line?
I've enjoyed our discussion, TSHerbs, but it isn't going anywhere. You're making a case for a moderator here but convincing the members won't help. It will only happen if the owner of the forum decides to make it happen.

I like the forum the way it is. I wouldn't mind a moderator if he was of the quality of Ron Zorn, who only intervenes in the most extreme of circumstances and only contributes to give the most excellent of advice, but moderators of his quality are rare indeed.

This recent bull is another reason why I am not satisfied with the current moderation level. I would call this a "most extreme of circumstances" (your term).

[bunyip]

@ASD: an important feature of that forum is that a person making a post which is moderated has the right (and a link) to discuss the event with the moderator privately. That has happened to me, where a post was mis-read, hidden, then after discussion restored to the thread. I have seen in other cases it can be a matter of changing a few words to change the tone without losing the thrust of that poster's point. It is a good point between under and over moderation, without lumbering the mods with extensive or public debate on decisions.

[Pterodactylus]

...

Personal opinion on:
Way too much text to read for me in the morning .....
I get that you prefer FPN over FPG, so I skip the text and wish you all the best returning to FPN. 👍
Personal opinion off:

Have a nice day

[pajaro]

I like each forum, mainly because of the people whose posts I find. Interesting and thoughtful ideas.

As a retired database administrator and system administrator, I am feeling some concern about the length of time FPN is down, but then I worked for a city government and had a lot of pressure on me to not be down at all. Also, systems accessed through the web have vulnerabilities and the pressure to get it back up might be different.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Now, another, unrelated forum has been down since this morning, and I'm getting the same sort of messages I see for FPN, like a log-in screen and all sorts of other stuff....don't think they have the same server OR software.