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Thread: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Is that such a bad thing though? One of the terms bandied around a lot over the years is 'entry level pen'. When I first read this I believed it referred to the writing characteristics of the pen, but after a few years of using fountain pens, I believe that the term is primarily (and typically) used to refer to price. We all know, or should by now, that cost is not always an indicator of performance. So, by extension, the implication is that once a person gets a fountain pen and likes it, they should be looking to spend more.

    (I would rather not get into all the stuff about materials and branding and so on. This post is really speaking to how the reddit-type groups can be veiwed)

    Yesterday I stumbled across a YT video:



    Not quite sure what to make of it. Is the narrator really saying these are the best 5 pens? Or the best 5 for people who just want something different to write with? Something else?
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; February 24th, 2021 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Is that such a bad thing though?
    Is what such a bad thing?
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Jon, don't forget the upvote/downvote button. It's never used in a way of "this post contributes to this thread or not". People almost exclusively use it as "I personally like this or not". This, I am certain, amplifies echo chamber effect A LOT, because people are discentivized for going against the herd. And the herd is not always right. Furthermore, criticism or just negative opinion about something is also not present.

    Let me give you an example. I personally like 4chan. I understand people know only what they read about it, but it's really a lot like reddit - with subreddits. These are called boards. There are nasty boards (as there are subreddits!!), but there are also really nice boards. One I particularly love reading is /ck/ - cooking. You see 4chan has NO upvotes or downvotes. No accounts. No post history. There's anonymous (you have to really go out of your way to set up a nickname and it's possible, but practically noone does).

    When I post my meal on a subreddit, I will get more or less positive feedback - but almost never negative. The reverse is true for 4chan. People almost never compliment you, but will be extremely critical. I tried making sloppy joes. I'm sorry, I'm not american, I've NEVER seen or eaten this before. I need criticism, so I know how to improve, I don't need praise.

    I have seen this effect on multiple subreddits. There's a herd mentality against which you simply can not go, as you said. There are opinions you can't state on there. I think Tomoe River is shitty paper that sheens so much you can barely read what you wrote, wrinkles way too easily and completely removes any shading potential of an ink. Try writing this there and let me know how it went.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Is that such a bad thing though?
    Is what such a bad thing?
    Sorry, should have quoted. Was referring to the way Reddit groups are.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    Jon, don't forget the upvote/downvote button. It's never used in a way of "this post contributes to this thread or not". People almost exclusively use it as "I personally like this or not". This, I am certain, amplifies echo chamber effect A LOT, because people are discentivized for going against the herd. And the herd is not always right. Furthermore, criticism or just negative opinion about something is also not present.

    Let me give you an example. I personally like 4chan. I understand people know only what they read about it, but it's really a lot like reddit - with subreddits. These are called boards. There are nasty boards (as there are subreddits!!), but there are also really nice boards. One I particularly love reading is /ck/ - cooking. You see 4chan has NO upvotes or downvotes. No accounts. No post history. There's anonymous (you have to really go out of your way to set up a nickname and it's possible, but practically noone does).

    When I post my meal on a subreddit, I will get more or less positive feedback - but almost never negative. The reverse is true for 4chan. People almost never compliment you, but will be extremely critical. I tried making sloppy joes. I'm sorry, I'm not american, I've NEVER seen or eaten this before. I need criticism, so I know how to improve, I don't need praise.

    I have seen this effect on multiple subreddits. There's a herd mentality against which you simply can not go, as you said. There are opinions you can't state on there. I think Tomoe River is shitty paper that sheens so much you can barely read what you wrote, wrinkles way too easily and completely removes any shading potential of an ink. Try writing this there and let me know how it went.
    [emphasis mine]

    It's tricky, because there is also the well-known phenomenon of 'The Wisdom of Crowds'. I find it's not always easy to differentiate the good from the bad in this respect.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post


    There are opinions you can't state on there. I think Tomoe River is shitty paper that sheens so much you can barely read what you wrote, wrinkles way too easily and completely removes any shading potential of an ink. Try writing this there and let me know how it went.
    Hooray, I thought I was the only one, I have a leather topped desk and my nibs go straight through, as you say, wrinkles like a granny in the hot sun and is expensive.

    I thought it just a version of the Emporer's New Clothes by Hans Christian Anderson

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    Jon, don't forget the upvote/downvote button.
    Well, uh, yes. I was trying to be positive! I've been on the receiving end of a lot of dv action and at one point was about ready to check out. I hung in there, in no small part due to Will's encouragement, because I hope that I do have things to offer, even if it only gets to a few people. I agree, though: in a technical area, with factual material, uv/dv systems don't make a lot of sense, and you can get popularity rather than reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Is that such a bad thing though?
    Is what such a bad thing?
    Sorry, should have quoted. Was referring to the way Reddit groups are.
    I just wanted to make certain that was where you were going. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing, but this isn't a "contemporary fashion forum" or anything that is regarding a subject without a history of information. If there was a reddit on carburetors, you wouldn't expect everyone to start tearing down their carbs with precisely zero acknowledgment of decades and decades of information on that very task, yet in the realm of functional use and repair of pens, reddit is quite a bit like that. When people are told to simply pull out the nib on their ECO and swap it out, and that is all they ever hear, and then they cry and cry when they destroy the first gold nib vintage pen by breaking a feed and cracking the nib, it is painful because it is born of ignorance.

    I don't want to influence taste, I don't want to tell people what inks are the most fashionable at the moment, I just want to fight ignorance born of a lack of information.

    Which is why it is an issue, because the format of the reddit structure doesn't easily support an archival approach to shared knowledge, and if places like forums disappear, we have issues. I don't have an answer, I don't want reddit fp to change, but... things are going to happen, I suppose.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Not quite sure what to make of it. Is the narrator really saying these are the best 5 pens? Or the best 5 for people who just want something different to write with? Something else?
    I've been using this for years:

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    There's a herd mentality against which you simply can not go, as you said.
    That's the reason I stopped visitng /r/fountainpens. Posting nothing other than a entirely factual statement attracts immediate downvotes. I don't care about the karma, but the inevitable conclusion that I draw is that no-one there actually cares about accuracy, or experience. It feels like the hive mind at junior high.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    I’m with you on reddit, adhoc. The upvotes/downvotes are a terrible “feature” which amplify received ideas good or bad, mostly bad when it comes to reddit. There’s also no time to challenge the consensus, since things scroll out of view fairly quickly.

    It’s almost as if reddit were an internet-age re-staging/simulation of Flaubert’s Bouvard and Pécuchet.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    ,,,

    Not quite sure what to make of it. Is the narrator really saying these are the best 5 pens? Or the best 5 for people who just want something different to write with? Something else?
    It's not about anything. It's made to take time.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    I have seen this effect on multiple subreddits. There's a herd mentality against which you simply can not go, as you said. There are opinions you can't state on there. I think Tomoe River is shitty paper that sheens so much you can barely read what you wrote, wrinkles way too easily and completely removes any shading potential of an ink. Try writing this there and let me know how it went.
    There is herd mentality everywhere if you noticed. The subreddit is just a place where it's easy to observe due to the volume.

    What I find is the best way to navigate the subreddit is to not care what anyone think about your opinion, and just state it.

    I never had any issue in speaking what I believe is *true* and *helpful* over there.

    And I got downvoted *very* often, heck, I got downvoted for simply saying "Thank you". But in the end, I also get quite a few people PM-ing me with "thank yous" and how what I said changed their view positively.
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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Wow, am I an anomaly???

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Wow, am I an anomaly???
    Pretty well established that already, Chuck...
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    I have seen this effect on multiple subreddits. There's a herd mentality against which you simply can not go, as you said. There are opinions you can't state on there. I think Tomoe River is shitty paper that sheens so much you can barely read what you wrote, wrinkles way too easily and completely removes any shading potential of an ink. Try writing this there and let me know how it went.
    There is herd mentality everywhere if you noticed. The subreddit is just a place where it's easy to observe due to the volume.
    Of course you’re right that the herd mentality is everywhere. It’s just that reddit has a convenient & built-in method of enforcing it.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    I can't seem to learn anything on the fp subreddit. It just doesn't work for me. And I can't stand browsing it.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I can't seem to learn anything on the fp subreddit. It just doesn't work for me. And I can't stand browsing it.
    I feel the same way. I don't go there deliberately, but it often comes up in an internet search. The result is invariably incomplete, useless, or doubtful. The good thing about both FPN and FPG is there is naturally some kind of peer review which makes information more complete, useful, and believable.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Back when I was learning about fountain pens I did a simple Google search. Time and time again I found the answer from an old FRN thread. For that reason I appreciate them being around. I find I am not posting as much these days, but I do enjoy reading.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I can't seem to learn anything on the fp subreddit. It just doesn't work for me. And I can't stand browsing it.
    I feel the same way. I don't go there deliberately, but it often comes up in an internet search. The result is invariably incomplete, useless, or doubtful. The good thing about both FPN and FPG is there is naturally some kind of peer review which makes information more complete, useful, and believable.
    Unfortunately, that's what I've found as well. That can also be true of a traditional forum, but I additionally find the subreddit kind of disorganized and hard to follow. It has a stream-of-consciousness sort of organization, I think. I kind of miss the usenet days where it was a fairly simple, pure thing. It certainly lacked many "modern features" though. And the usenet had some brawlers and funny characters back in the day that seem to have vanished.

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    Default Re: FPG Refuges Status Area: The 2020 FPN Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray-VIgo View Post

    I kind of miss the usenet days where it was a fairly simple, pure thing. It certainly lacked many "modern features" though. And the usenet had some brawlers and funny characters back in the day that seem to have vanished.
    Usenet was a while ago so some of them have literally vanished. I still miss Frank Dubiel. Imagine him on FPN.

    And yeah, i agree, usenet was often better than what replaced it.

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