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Thread: Non Wood Paper

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pterodactylus View Post
    As migo said historical vellum paper like parchment was made from the skin of certain animals.
    Then the word vellum was used for high quality rag paper which had a similar finish as the ancient skin vellum. . . .
    This process of naming something by a superficial look is prevalent. I find it a nuisance when searching for paper. One cannot search for "linen" paper and expect to find linen.

    For some reason "cotton" papers are still made of cotton, but I think that is because the qualities of cotton are more subtle and often even ignored by many people.

    A brown block of wood in never called a chocolate bar, but who knows how the language may change in the future.
    Then too, a medium. 'vellum' that is made from materials, synthetics for instance, that are cheaper or easier to produce will often be carry on the name as the original fades into obsolescence.

    I know that all the vellum I used even 40 years ago was not made from animal skins. In fact, I assumed it was some sort of polymer. Imagine my surprise when I found out it, modern vellum, is actually made from cellulose fibre.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    I just received the Southworth 100% from Amazon today. It's OK, but very plain, dare I say cheap, looking. It's harder than the others so ink pools a bit on it. That may, or may not, be desirable to some folks. Despite feeling smooth to the touch, it is very toothy on nibs. Even my smoothest nib has more resistance than I'd expect. I was disappointed that there was no watermark, which the advertising copy had promised.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    I'll post my amazon.ca links

    Gnatural yellow 75%/25%
    Gnatural white 75%/25%
    Gnatural white 100%
    Southwoorth 100%

    I think they suppress or bury some results. I don't like that. The Gnatural 100% cotton was very difficult for me to find in the first place. I only found it because I knew it was there.

    Thanks for posting the links....
    What is your preference the 75% 25%
    or the 100% and which brand?

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    @Yazeh The 75%cotton 25%linen in white is my all time favorite. It has a softness and depth that turns my crank. It's quite expensive as papers go, but to me it's worth it. I'm a little reluctant to recommend these papers to regular fountain pen users though, because they're not what is normally expected for that use case.

    The Gnatural 100% cotton is surprisingly inexpensive. Two thirds the price for twice the sheets. It's actually quite nice too, but it doesn't quite have the depth of feel nor the beautiful tiny red and blue security threads.

    I should say, I don't recommend the Southworth. For one it is plain and boring, and for another, it doesn't take ink as nicely.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    I love vintage paper. It usually works for everything.

    Just stay away from stone paper. Tried it years ago. It must have been someone's idea of a 'rock, paper, scissors' joke. I keep my two tablets as a curiosity.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!

    My eBooks. Because why not.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    @Yazeh The 75%cotton 25%linen in white is my all time favorite. It has a softness and depth that turns my crank. It's quite expensive as papers go, but to me it's worth it. I'm a little reluctant to recommend these papers to regular fountain pen users though, because they're not what is normally expected for that use case.

    The Gnatural 100% cotton is surprisingly inexpensive. Two thirds the price for twice the sheets. It's actually quite nice too, but it doesn't quite have the depth of feel nor the beautiful tiny red and blue security threads.

    I should say, I don't recommend the Southworth. For one it is plain and boring, and for another, it doesn't take ink as nicely.
    Thanks Ole Juul..... I've added to my long list of stationary to try

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Is there anything to watch out for regarding inks? For example, if inks are permanent, or water resistant, on papers from wood pulp can I assume similar behavior on a cotton paper?

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by XYZZY View Post
    Is there anything to watch out for regarding inks? For example, if inks are permanent, or water resistant, on papers from wood pulp can I assume similar behavior on a cotton paper?
    As there are thousands of fountain pen inks on the market, they can be quite different and have many attributes.
    So it depends mainly on your personal preference and use case what to choose.


    Water proof is waterproof no matter which paper you use (unless the paper desolves in the water )
    Better paper is usually never a issue for an ink, the better question is which inks perform also great on cheap low quality paper.

    E.g. you can write with an iron gall ink like ESS Registrars Blue-Black on everything almost down to toilet paper with an excellent performance only to make one example.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by XYZZY View Post
    Is there anything to watch out for regarding inks? For example, if inks are permanent, or water resistant, on papers from wood pulp can I assume similar behavior on a cotton paper?
    Yes, very similar. The fiber in both cases is cellulose. The major difference is that cotton, flax (linen), and some other fibers, are much longer, and hence stronger. For writing papers the pulp is very clean and free of lignin and other artifacts.

    It is of course possible that some dyes attach (or not) to some of the minor materials in the pulp, such as fillers. The papers that I mentioned above are pretty pure. They're also UV dull, and don't have any brighteners either.

    About brightening agents: It is common to add brighteners (either at the wet end or the dry end on the paper machine) and that's why we can get papers that have a 100% brightness, or even greater! These are fluorescent dyes which turn non visible frequencies of light into visible. We see these in photo papers and some copy papers. But many manufacturers add these in smaller quantities to maintain the target brightness for the product. After several years the whitener will degrade because of reaction with oxygen, so it is not really a permanent solution. However, it is not something you expect in writing papers, especially non wood ones.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by migo984 View Post
    Interesting information - thank you for taking the time to post.

    As a long-time user of Tomoegawa paper (52gsm only; the 68gsm is not nice IMO) I am upset that they’ve changed the specification of the paper. The new spec is nowhere near as good. As such I’m on the lookout for a replacement. I like Graphilo & Midori MD (Japan) and Elias (Philippines) but I’m still searching........

    For pen & ink drawing I sometimes use matt drafting film (polyester) and vellum (plasticised cotton). Traditional tracing paper is good too. They give very clean lines, with no bleedthrough. The ink sits on the surface. The drafting film (I use 005 double matt Polydraw) is also an unusual and exciting surface for coloured pencil,work, especially as, being translucent, I can use both sides for a drawing to get nice effects.

    I wouldn’t use any of these as standard writing surfaces, but I do enjoy them for sketching and designing with pigment or drawing inks like Rohrer & Klingner.
    Mijo, you might want to look up Yoseka, notebooks

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XYZZY View Post
    Is there anything to watch out for regarding inks? For example, if inks are permanent, or water resistant, on papers from wood pulp can I assume similar behavior on a cotton paper?
    Yes, very similar. The fiber in both cases is cellulose. The major difference is that cotton, flax (linen), and some other fibers, are much longer, and hence stronger. For writing papers the pulp is very clean and free of lignin and other artifacts.

    It is of course possible that some dyes attach (or not) to some of the minor materials in the pulp, such as fillers. The papers that I mentioned above are pretty pure. They're also UV dull, and don't have any brighteners either.

    About brightening agents: It is common to add brighteners (either at the wet end or the dry end on the paper machine) and that's why we can get papers that have a 100% brightness, or even greater! These are fluorescent dyes which turn non visible frequencies of light into visible. We see these in photo papers and some copy papers. But many manufacturers add these in smaller quantities to maintain the target brightness for the product. After several years the whitener will degrade because of reaction with oxygen, so it is not really a permanent solution. However, it is not something you expect in writing papers, especially non wood ones.
    Thanks for all the detailed information, especially about paper brightness. I finally got it...
    Though from what you said, other inks behaviours like shading and sheening would be less prominent on none wood paper,I guess.

    It's funny I always thought that cootn paper, was luxurious, thick, on the bright side like some wedding invitation I have received. I never thought they would be dull

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    . . .
    It's funny I always thought that cootn paper, was luxurious, thick, on the bright side like some wedding invitation I have received. I never thought they would be dull
    Cotton can be made hard, soft, thick, thin, semi transparent, just about anything you want. That is not a major characteristic of the fiber, but mostly a characteristic of the beating process and calendering.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by migo984 View Post
    Interesting information - thank you for taking the time to post.

    As a long-time user of Tomoegawa paper (52gsm only; the 68gsm is not nice IMO) I am upset that they’ve changed the specification of the paper. The new spec is nowhere near as good. As such I’m on the lookout for a replacement. I like Graphilo & Midori MD (Japan) and Elias (Philippines) but I’m still searching........

    For pen & ink drawing I sometimes use matt drafting film (polyester) and vellum (plasticised cotton). Traditional tracing paper is good too. They give very clean lines, with no bleedthrough. The ink sits on the surface. The drafting film (I use 005 double matt Polydraw) is also an unusual and exciting surface for coloured pencil,work, especially as, being translucent, I can use both sides for a drawing to get nice effects.

    I wouldn’t use any of these as standard writing surfaces, but I do enjoy them for sketching and designing with pigment or drawing inks like Rohrer & Klingner.
    Mijo, you might want to look up Yoseka, notebooks
    I have a Yoseka notebook. About a year ago somebody on FPN mentioned them, saying they considered this to be a replacement for Tomoe River. I got super-excited, and bought one. While I recommend the shop (https://yosekastationery.com/), I cannot recommend the paper. It's a pretty white page and I like the texture, but it has a tendency to bleed and it is bad about keeping finger oils on the page so that they can interrupt the ink. I guess it's better than Leuchtturm, though. It's not horrible, and I don't regret buying the notebook, but I won't be buying a second.
    Last edited by XYZZY; November 27th, 2020 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Here is a slide-deck from SAPPI that covers a lot of paper manufacturing basics: https://www.slideshare.net/SappiHous...-november-2012

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by XYZZY View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by migo984 View Post
    Interesting information - thank you for taking the time to post.

    As a long-time user of Tomoegawa paper (52gsm only; the 68gsm is not nice IMO) I am upset that they’ve changed the specification of the paper. The new spec is nowhere near as good. As such I’m on the lookout for a replacement. I like Graphilo & Midori MD (Japan) and Elias (Philippines) but I’m still searching........

    For pen & ink drawing I sometimes use matt drafting film (polyester) and vellum (plasticised cotton). Traditional tracing paper is good too. They give very clean lines, with no bleedthrough. The ink sits on the surface. The drafting film (I use 005 double matt Polydraw) is also an unusual and exciting surface for coloured pencil,work, especially as, being translucent, I can use both sides for a drawing to get nice effects.

    I wouldn’t use any of these as standard writing surfaces, but I do enjoy them for sketching and designing with pigment or drawing inks like Rohrer & Klingner.
    Mijo, you might want to look up Yoseka, notebooks
    I have a Yoseka notebook. About a year ago somebody on FPN mentioned them, saying they considered this to be a replacement for Tomoe River. I got super-excited, and bought one. While I recommend the shop (https://yosekastationery.com/), I cannot recommend the paper. It's a pretty white page and I like the texture, but it has a tendency to bleed and it is bad about keeping finger oils on the page so that they can interrupt the ink. I guess it's better than Leuchtturm, though. It's not horrible, and I don't regret buying the notebook, but I won't be buying a second.
    Thanks for letting me know.... I guess I'm gravitating more towards textured papers.....I'm not enjoying Rhodia and the gang as much as I did before...

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    I just received the Southworth 100% from Amazon today. It's OK, but very plain, dare I say cheap, looking. It's harder than the others so ink pools a bit on it. That may, or may not, be desirable to some folks. Despite feeling smooth to the touch, it is very toothy on nibs. Even my smoothest nib has more resistance than I'd expect. I was disappointed that there was no watermark, which the advertising copy had promised.
    I agree, Southworth seems to be inferior and overpriced when compared to writing paper from Neenah or Mohawk. Paper from both mills can be found at the papermillstore.com or your local paper merchant that supplies local printers. Most make cash and carry sales that are willing to sell reams of writing paper to individuals. Buying from local stores like that save you from paying postage on a rather heavy product. (Even 'free' Amazon Prime prices have postage added into the papers online price.)

    Plus paper merchants are often rather generous with samples, and you can see the paper. They also often have clearance on slow selling papers that might be just what you are looking for.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Jleeper View Post
    I agree, Southworth seems to be inferior and overpriced when compared to writing paper from Neenah or Mohawk. Paper from both mills can be found at the papermillstore.com or your local paper merchant that supplies local printers. Most make cash and carry sales that are willing to sell reams of writing paper to individuals. Buying from local stores like that save you from paying postage on a rather heavy product. (Even 'free' Amazon Prime prices have postage added into the papers online price.)

    Plus paper merchants are often rather generous with samples, and you can see the paper. They also often have clearance on slow selling papers that might be just what you are looking for.
    Thanks for the info. The papermillstore.com looks excellent.

    I've bought paper at proper paper supply on the Lower Mainland when I lived there. They do accept cash and carry and have clearance sales. The variety is quite limited though because they mostly sell BC mill products. Unfortunately that's 8 hours return which is a hundred dollars in gas. It's not an option since I moved into the mountains. That's the price I pay for not living in a major center any more.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    It depends to me that I chase two toned shading inks. 25% cotton does well there. 50-100% don't. They swallow up the shading. They are a bit too absorbent. If not using shading inks, would be fine.

    Rossler is a German brand..I bought single sheets in it was expensive and I wanted to find out what was what....one of the 100% cotton papers, 120g was so sinfully good to write on, it would be illegal to use on Sunday in Kansas........unfortunately it feathered like a champ. Rossler is an expensive German paper, and I don't like it at 100g or 120g or the 80g pad....it is not now a fountain pen paper, due to feathering.

    I have original Crown Mill 100% cotton & Strathmore watermarked 100% cotton they are nice, but again...swallow shading, so I don't use them.

    My Southworth papers, 2 or 6 packs are 100% cotton, and actually I don't use any of them as much as I could.....in they were hard to come by....I flew to the States for business and was looking for papers and found Target or Homeoffice selling them. so stocked up. I couldn't find any other paper source in Northern Virginia; and unfortunately didn't drive to Tyson Corner's fountain pen shop and found perhaps more paper.

    I am rather old fashioned and don't order from online enough.

    I guess I've 30-35 papers, some packs, others gifts so are smaller amounts. Perhaps a little bit more...that I have no idea what they are!!!!
    I tend to like heavy papers 150g or better at various times. I don't think of 120g as heavy paper.

    My Verge de France is 25% 160g. Got to get some of that in thin paper someday.

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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    I love vintage paper. It usually works for everything.

    Just stay away from stone paper. Tried it years ago. It must have been someone's idea of a 'rock, paper, scissors' joke. I keep my two tablets as a curiosity.
    I second the sentiment on stone paper. It works well initially but eventually, the ink spreads on the page even after several months. I did find that it works well as a nib polishing paper through.
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    Default Re: Non Wood Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyIvan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    I love vintage paper. It usually works for everything.

    Just stay away from stone paper. Tried it years ago. It must have been someone's idea of a 'rock, paper, scissors' joke. I keep my two tablets as a curiosity.
    I second the sentiment on stone paper. It works well initially but eventually, the ink spreads on the page even after several months. I did find that it works well as a nib polishing paper through.
    I should have thought of that! 👍🏻
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!

    My eBooks. Because why not.

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