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Thread: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The big question is of course whether Trump runs again. I hope not, and DeSantis should easily win the GOP slot. He would be hard to beat. He would be smart to pick Noem as a VP.

    edit

    I can’t see Kasich or Cheney as viable candidates. Kasich pissed off the Trump voter, and showed himself to be too establishment. I liked him until his 2016 bid (and I would have rather had Rand Paul than Kasich or Trump). Cheney wouldn’t stand a chance. Establishment, last name, and hated by the Trump voter.
    I could see an independant candidate spoiling any Republican bid. Trump was only popular with a type of voter. January 6 demonstrated who he is and his followers are now being sentenced to prison terms for which he will probably pardon day one. Plus, many supporters are dead or dying of COVID-19. There is nothing like death and jail time to jar someone not otherwise staying informed.

    The Florida governor has blood on his hands due to inaction and lack of leadership to sheild and protect his state.

    Kasich and Cheney are decent people and why they would have my support.

  2. #362
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    I don't know that Liz Cheney has done anything other than being a member of the Cheney family. I liked Kasich when he was in Congress, and as governor; but Trump "broke" him too. There seem to be very few politicians with integrity (I know, big surprise...) - a la Tom Coburn.

    No one seems to be able to talk objectively about Trump, and those on the left in particular don't seem to be able to see his appeal to the middle-class voter. DeSantis presents the same appeal, without the mean-tweeting, obnoxiousness, orange-ness, etc...

    If you look at the data and not the headlines - Florida has done as well as any other large state.
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  3. #363
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I don't know that Liz Cheney has done anything other than being a member of the Cheney family. I liked Kasich when he was in Congress, and as governor; but Trump "broke" him too. There seem to be very few politicians with integrity (I know, big surprise...) - a la Tom Coburn.

    No one seems to be able to talk objectively about Trump, and those on the left in particular don't seem to be able to see his appeal to the middle-class voter. DeSantis presents the same appeal, without the mean-tweeting, obnoxiousness, orange-ness, etc...

    If you look at the data and not the headlines - Florida has done as well as any other large state.
    If "broke" means being a jerk, I will agree. That said, if you choose to maintain your grace toward others, that does not make you less. When I was in HS and playing football, I had a coach who said, "nice guys finish last". I was impressionable and believed him. I took cheap licks and broke a runners leg once on a tackle as a defensive back. I am not proud of this. Now I think differently. I read a book once where the author said the mark of a spiritual man is one that would rather die right than live wrong.

    Trump is not someone I would want with me in a war trench. He is not someone I would want with me on the Appalachian Trial in bad weather. He is not someone I would trust to watch out for my famiy if I was away. Get my drift? He is an asshole. I am being objective and honest. The information is readily avaialble to inform and I am not on the left.

  4. #364
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    I 100% agree Trump is an asshole, and I've said that many times.

    That has nothing to do with his political appeal to a very large portion of the country, and that's my point. Many can't get past the personality to clearly evaluate why people voted for him. It's much more complex than "they're all racists", or whatever narrative is espoused.
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I 100% agree Trump is an asshole, and I've said that many times.

    That has nothing to do with his political appeal to a very large portion of the country, and that's my point. Many can't get past the personality to clearly evaluate why people voted for him. It's much more complex than "they're all racists", or whatever narrative is espoused.
    I can agree he appeals to a portion, but my question is why? What proportion of those would be able to tell you how he helped them?

    We need everyone to have access to WIFI. We need healthcare available. We need a living wage. More than anything, we need a path for assisted or free higher education because we all benefit with educated citizens. At least the Democrats are trying. You can criticize them, but Trump could never address. Didn’t try. Didn’t educate himself. Didn’t pay attention.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    By higher Ed, I would include skills and not just academic

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    I can agree he appeals to a portion, but my question is why? What proportion of those would be able to tell you how he helped them?
    He appealed to half the country, so why indeed?

    This is where the value of listening to Eric Weinstein or Steve Bannon comes in, as opposed to dismissing them. One can't honestly disagree with them until they've been heard.

    Both talk about about big money in cahoots with politics and media. They exported jobs to China and other 3rd world countries, because profit. See: Bannon's "Party of Davos" hypothesis and Eric Weinstein's "Embedded Growth Obligation" and "Kleptocracy". Trump is a global real estate billionaire. He surely knows how the system works, and mingled in those circles. He called it out, he told the average American they were getting screwed, how, and that he would fight for them. What other choice did they have? Hillary (more of the status quo / kleptocracy)?

    Middle America saw job growth, lower cost of living, booming economy, 401k investments doing well, cheap gas prices etc... All the things Trump promised them. The left rarely talks policies other than labeling them, because their policies are what we're experiencing now.

    Trump empowered the average Joe. He literally made their lives better. Trump "stuck it" to everything the middle American hated about the system. He turned the tables on the in-group/out-group culture war, and the "in-group" (i.e.: the "elitists" in politics, academia and the media) got steam rolled. It's not just the white middle-American that benefited either. His polling numbers with African Americans, Latinos and Asians are astounding - for a reason.

    He's still an asshole, but he (from their perspective) was an asshole fighting for them. That's why they didn't care that he was a billionaire with a supermodel wife. That's why they didn't care about his crazy hair and orange skin. The same "mean tweets" the cultured classes abhorred, endeared him to his supporters. They hate the people Trump was "mean-tweeting" to, too.
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I can agree he appeals to a portion, but my question is why? What proportion of those would be able to tell you how he helped them?
    He appealed to half the country, so why indeed?

    This is where the value of listening to Eric Weinstein or Steve Bannon comes in, as opposed to dismissing them. One can't honestly disagree with them until they've been heard.

    Both talk about about big money in cahoots with politics and media. They exported jobs to China and other 3rd world countries, because profit. See: Bannon's "Party of Davos" hypothesis and Eric Weinstein's "Embedded Growth Obligation" and "Kleptocracy". Trump is a global real estate billionaire. He surely knows how the system works, and mingled in those circles. He called it out, he told the average American they were getting screwed, how, and that he would fight for them. What other choice did they have? Hillary (more of the status quo / kleptocracy)?

    Middle America saw job growth, lower cost of living, booming economy, 401k investments doing well, cheap gas prices etc... All the things Trump promised them. The left rarely talks policies other than labeling them, because their policies are what we're experiencing now.

    Trump empowered the average Joe. He literally made their lives better. Trump "stuck it" to everything the middle American hated about the system. He turned the tables on the in-group/out-group culture war, and the "in-group" (i.e.: the "elitists" in politics, academia and the media) got steam rolled. It's not just the white middle-American that benefited either. His polling numbers with African Americans, Latinos and Asians are astounding - for a reason.

    He's still an asshole, but he (from their perspective) was an asshole fighting for them. That's why they didn't care that he was a billionaire with a supermodel wife. That's why they didn't care about his crazy hair and orange skin. The same "mean tweets" the cultured classes abhorred, endeared him to his supporters. They hate the people Trump was "mean-tweeting" to, too.
    Wish I knew your name, but @dneal, you don’t steam roll half the people and call it a success.

    He job approval numbers were never good and the trajectory he inherited was excellent .

    No comment on Bannon. People like that are no good for the country.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    What are you calling "middle America," dneal? Can you be more specific, please, about who had good years from 2016-2020?

    Then we can look at the various specifics of employment performance, savings, indebtedness, median income, income improvements beyond inflation, poverty levels, food and housing insecurity, income inequality, education levels. Etc.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Objectivity does not mean positive comments, just saying.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Some Bannon quotes
    “ In an interview, Bannon told journalist Michael Lewis in February 2018, "We got elected on Drain the Swamp, Lock Her Up, Build a Wall. This was pure anger. Anger and fear is what gets people to the polls." He added, "The Democrats don't matter. The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit."[272]”

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    So, the strategy is to treat your voters like mushrooms, keep them in the dark and feed this shit.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    And so much for civil discussion...

    Why Trump triggers you guys so much is beyond me.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    I asked you a very civil question. See above.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    And so much for civil discussion...

    Why Trump triggers you guys so much is beyond me.
    Why he doesn't trigger you is beyond me.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    @ TSherbs. Fair enough, but honestly this is just going to turn into one set of "facts" against another, with some opinion pieces thrown in. I'm not really interested in that. You weren't satisfied with 90+ percent government issued ID. You wanted 100%. Perfection. While that's a noble goal, it's never going to happen. But 90% dispels the narrative of voter ID = voter suppression.

    I'm tired of the narratives.

    Look at this one from the census bureau:

    "Poverty Rates for Blacks and Hispanics Reached Historic Lows in 2019." But the narrators have to add: "Inequalities Persist Despite Decline in Poverty For All Major Race and Hispanic Origin Groups".

    Both are facts, from the same government site. One rings neutral to positive, and one negative. One is more nebulous: "Inequalities persist". More "not good enough". Why isn't it "Inequalities decline", like this Brookings piece? Inequalities are always going to exist. Jeff Bezos' or Elon Musk's net worth increasing creates more "income inequality" between me and them. So what? How does that affect me?

    But that gets away from the point. Why people voted for Trump (in historic numbers). Trump's policies benefitted most middle to low income Americans (is that more clear?). Factory workers. Truck drivers. Small businesses. Their expenses were lower. Their taxes were lower (although the media tried to hide that because refunds were lower - because they paid less).

    The ones that got hurt were states that were affected by SALT. Sorry New York (and others), your residents don't get to write off their state and local taxes anymore on their federal returns. You can pay your (now lower) federal tax like everybody else. State tax rate too high (which the SALT reduction exposed)? Take it up with your state, or move, which many did. Now, Democrats are trying to raise the deduction.

    But we're still ignoring Bannon. From the Oxford Union talk that I shared and everyone dismissed because "oooh, Bannon is a bad guy..." Maybe so, but he has a few points:

    …remember this populist movement in Donald Trump is not the cause of this, they're the product of this. September 18 2008: Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, Secretary of Treasury Hank Paulson - a guy used to work for Goldman Sachs - walk into the Oval Office a couple of days after Lehman Brothers was put into bankruptcy in London. They tell him by five o'clock tonight we need one trillion dollars in cash or the American financial system is going to implode in 48 hours. The world financial system will implode in 72 hours, and in two weeks we'll have global anarchy and chaos. Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulson are not given to hyperbole. Very low-key, very professional people in finance. One trillion dollars by the close of business or the American financial system, the British financial system, the EU, the bank of Tokyo… all of it will come down in four or five days.

    How did that happen? People like you and me people that bought into the system, and who has been held accountable? Name one banker, one CEO, one law firm, one accounting firm. How did we get this out of the most progressive president in the history of our country? We basically just flooded the zone with liquidity. We bailed out the party of Davos. When the scientific-engineering-managerial-financial-cultural elite, with their political employees, bail themselves out; it's not a free bailout. I think today it's forty one trillion dollars of debt to central governments. Remember these are all in the minutes of congressional hearings.

    They say at the time: “Hey, this is going to cause interest rates to go to zero”. So the 2,500 or 3,000 years of the Judeo-Christian West, we taught the good householder to save. You get zero. You're a sucker. You have a savings account? You're a sucker. The pension funds have the biggest gap in history. Why you can't get returns on the pensions? You can't do a public bond offering in the United States to fix a school or to build a water system.

    We basically socialized the risk for the wealthy. In the United States 50% of our population can't put together 400 dollars of cash in an emergency. 62% of the jobs that were created before President Trump got there, were jobs a living wage or below the living wage - and living wage means no extras, no holidays, nothing for the kids. It means basically subsistence. The elite in this world are the cause of the problem, not the populace and certainly not Donald Trump.
    And Eric Weinstein? Nope, can't listen to him because he's talking to Glenn Beck (which Beck was shocked at too). What did he have to say? Here's a snippet that sounds similar to Bannon:

    The democratic party had to search for the cheapest alternative to organized labor and that was organized identity. So now you've swapped out organized labor destroyed by PATCO and competitiveness and the previous idealism that was cloaking a theft and suddenly the democratic party is the party of identity because it's the cheapest substitute, and it buys time for the kleptocracy to continue looting the country; which gives birth to MAGA…
    Last edited by dneal; November 30th, 2021 at 05:25 PM. Reason: editing transcript
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    And so much for civil discussion...

    Why Trump triggers you guys so much is beyond me.
    Why he doesn't trigger you is beyond me.
    I have control of my emotions and can think rationally. I don't drink kool-aid or live in an echo chamber. Your triggered series of posts indicates otherwise, in your case.

    It's a shame, and it's why your abortion thread is going to go south.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    And so much for civil discussion...

    Why Trump triggers you guys so much is beyond me.
    Why he doesn't trigger you is beyond me.
    I have control of my emotions and can think rationally. I don't drink kool-aid or live in an echo chamber. Your triggered series of posts indicates otherwise, in your case.

    It's a shame, and it's why your abortion thread is going to go south.
    It appears to me you don’t have control or think/act rationally at all. Just an observation based on your reactions here . You can be a drama king at times

  20. #379
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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Where did the reasonable Chuck go? This one is fun to talk shit to, but the other one had more interesting conversation.

    -edit-

    So, the strategy is to treat your voters like mushrooms, keep them in the dark and feed this shit.
    You posted this, Chuck. Who is interested in drama? Who is rational?
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Speaking of conspiracy theories...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    @ TSherbs. Fair enough, but honestly this is just going to turn into one set of "facts" against another, with some opinion pieces thrown in. I'm not really interested in that.
    OK. I just asked a question about what you meant by "middle America" so that I knew what grouping you meant (usually it is used as a family/household total income term). But then I thought maybe you meant "middle" as in geography. So I asked.

    So never mind.

    What *I* am not interested in is why anyone votes for one candidate or another. I don't care why anyone voted for or against Trump or for or against Biden or whomever. You can have that discussion with others. I totally get that other voters don't share my opinion or preferences. I don't begrudge them at all. I am about 50-50 in my adult lifetime of voting in presidential and other elections, even this recent set of citizen initiatives on the ballot in my state. oh well. Win some, lose some.

    But I do like data tables. I'll look them up on my own when I get the time.

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