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Thread: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Biber View Post
    What I simply cannot abide is "you guys's". I've seen many an otherwise intelligent person reduced to an absolute moron by the use of that phrase.
    Why? It's a perfectly clear possessive.

    I teach grammar for a living, but I admit the often totally arbitrary and elitist rules of insistence on certain constructions. "Ain't," for example, is perfectly clear and precise. There is no reason not to use it except for adherence to a kind of cultural protocol that is set up to distinguish the educated from the non-educated. And even though I am an educator, the elitism and classism that education has bolstered over the modern centuries is an injustice.
    "Y'all" is also quite clear. These terms exist and persist because they work and fill a gap in the formal rules of usage.
    emphasis mine.

    Language exploded for me once I embraced the idea that grammar rules are descriptive not prescriptive.

    Now I'm delighted instead of horrified by odd syntax and neologisms. I'm delighted to know there are corners of the English language that the grammarians haven't codified.

    best of all is tossing the rules aside to make yourself perfectly clear.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Y'all ain't gettin' it, ain'tcha?




    By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    Would the thread be more acceptable if it were written in fountain pen?

    Perhaps thees and thous look better in fountain pen ink (maybe not the pretty sparkly pink) than in pencil or ballpoint?

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post

    Language exploded for me once I embraced the idea that grammar rules are descriptive not prescriptive.

    Now I'm delighted instead of horrified by odd syntax and neologisms. I'm delighted to know there are corners of the English language that the grammarians haven't codified.

    best of all is tossing the rules aside to make yourself perfectly clear.
    great points

    and this is not to say that rules don't matter; they do

    but let's keep them in perspective and, at times, at arm's length

    and enjoy the rich variety and power and legitimacy of what we term the colloquial and the vernacular

    So, who are youse rooting for, KC or New Orleans?

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    this is fun to think about. many of us are kind of bored with pens. it's the adjacencies that keep this place lively.

    can you imagine how intolerable a grammar message board would be? better to dip into it with a group of folks like this, there's more fun to be had.

    we all obviously have some interest in writing, and a wild array of experience means most of us will learn something cool during the discussion.

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    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    this is fun to think about. many of us are kind of bored with pens. it's the adjacencies that keep this place lively.

    can you imagine how intolerable a grammar message board would be? better to dip into it with a group of folks like this, there's more fun to be had.

    we all obviously have some interest in writing, and a wild array of experience means most of us will learn something cool during the discussion.
    I agree that tangential topics could be fun. And if you like (or at least could tolerate without having a heartburn) the people, it would be more fun.

    But you may be bored with pens, I am not, far from it.

    It remains to be seen if there are more "bored with pens" folk here than the ones who are still having fun.

    Maybe a poll thread...
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    great points

    and this is not to say that rules don't matter; they do

    but let's keep them in perspective and, at times, at arm's length

    and enjoy the rich variety and power and legitimacy of what we term the colloquial and the vernacular
    for sure. Solid grammar is like a skeleton key.

    So, who are youse rooting for, KC or New Orleans?
    I don't follow hockey.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Come for the pens, stay for the people. It's what has kept me going for well over a decade. In other news:

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    ...By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    You know of any sales?
    What sales? Second person plurals? No.

    (I could assume that you're talking about pens, but since we're out here in the off-topic-la-la-land ...)
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    ...By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    You know of any sales?
    What sales? Second person plurals? No.

    (I could assume that you're talking about pens, but since we're out here in the off-topic-la-la-land ...)
    . Yes, I meant that in lieu of any great sales, I am watching football and checking my phone and staying off the beer.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Y'all ain't gettin' it, ain'tcha?




    By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    Could it be that fountain pen users are also 'word people', and as such, words and how words are used interest us? With that, are we also thinking people for whom a digression or an abstract thought is an interest? In the end, it may be that we think about stuff, some of which has little to do with inks or pens.
    Last edited by An old bloke; December 20th, 2020 at 04:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Come for the pens, stay for the people. It's what has kept me going for well over a decade. In other news:

    Anderson is a genius.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Born and raised in Boiling Springs, PA. This is about 30 minutes west of Harrisburg. I find where I'm from is rather "middle of nowhere" to most, though it is near Hershey! So we have a few notable things. A friend's parents in Gardners (only 10 mins from Boiling Springs) consistently said "yous" or "youinz" and "red up your room" which means "clean (ready up) your room."

    As far as PA accents go, it's an interesting mix! I find once we hit Hanover/Gettysburg (heading into Maryland) there is a slight...twang? Noticeable change in accent to my ears. I spent a lot of time in this area and my friends from there would make fun of certain words I said, and we'd lovingly dish it out to one another. They'd say y'all a lot, and I picked it up from them! It still slips out sometimes. They'd say "bibs" for overalls and "crick" for creek. And I find a lot of people I know say "I seen" instead of "I saw."

    Now, I live near Lancaster (PA Dutch!) I worked in an Amish tourist trap. And yes they (the Amish) mostly speak actual PA Dutch.. it's nothing to do with Dutch but rather a very different type of German? The kids learn English later on. Their accents can be thick but I'm not sure how to describe it! Of course, this is all anecdotal, but it's true to what I've witnessed and heard my whole life.

    As for my accent.. I don't think it's anything out of the ordinary for this area. I've been told I have a very mild, almost modern PA Dutch influence. Probably more of a Central PA accent. It's mostly how I pronounce the "o" sound that can stick out. Once as a waitress, a table asked me if I was from Texas. Ha, not sure what made them think that!

    I interject "like" a bit when I talk. I know that can be annoying to some but I don't think I overdo it. It just happens naturally. I have a penpal in Texas who tells me I sound like her family from PA, just with the way I structure my sentences. I have an aversion to the words "to be." I just say "the car needs washed" or "the house needs vacuumed." I never knew that was wrong until I was called out on it! The pronunciation of "water" and "wash" around here is up for debate! I hear "wooder" and "warsh" a lot but I don't naturally say them like that. Oh, and if I say "did you eat yet" I say "jeet yet" lol. And I'll just randomly place the words "then" and "awhile" at the ends of sentences when the mood strikes. Which I also thought was normal.

    And as for the plural you.. I just say "hey (you) guys."

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    By the way, why are posts that have nothing to do with pens seem to get more responses here?

    (And I include myself as part of those who do respond).
    this is fun to think about. many of us are kind of bored with pens. it's the adjacencies that keep this place lively.

    can you imagine how intolerable a grammar message board would be? better to dip into it with a group of folks like this, there's more fun to be had.

    we all obviously have some interest in writing, and a wild array of experience means most of us will learn something cool during the discussion.
    I'm not all bored with pens but it's nice to look at some other issues among the same group of people. I think my take on this is how language has been prescribed and proscribed by (in many cases) half-educated educators working on small kids.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrayonAngelss View Post
    Born and raised in Boiling Springs, PA. This is about 30 minutes west of Harrisburg. I find where I'm from is rather "middle of nowhere" to most, though it is near Hershey! So we have a few notable things. A friend's parents in Gardners (only 10 mins from Boiling Springs) consistently said "yous" or "youinz" and "red up your room" which means "clean (ready up) your room."

    As far as PA accents go, it's an interesting mix! I find once we hit Hanover/Gettysburg (heading into Maryland) there is a slight...twang? Noticeable change in accent to my ears. I spent a lot of time in this area and my friends from there would make fun of certain words I said, and we'd lovingly dish it out to one another. They'd say y'all a lot, and I picked it up from them! It still slips out sometimes. They'd say "bibs" for overalls and "crick" for creek. And I find a lot of people I know say "I seen" instead of "I saw."

    Now, I live near Lancaster (PA Dutch!) I worked in an Amish tourist trap. And yes they (the Amish) mostly speak actual PA Dutch.. it's nothing to do with Dutch but rather a very different type of German? The kids learn English later on. Their accents can be thick but I'm not sure how to describe it! Of course, this is all anecdotal, but it's true to what I've witnessed and heard my whole life.

    As for my accent.. I don't think it's anything out of the ordinary for this area. I've been told I have a very mild, almost modern PA Dutch influence. Probably more of a Central PA accent. It's mostly how I pronounce the "o" sound that can stick out. Once as a waitress, a table asked me if I was from Texas. Ha, not sure what made them think that!

    I interject "like" a bit when I talk. I know that can be annoying to some but I don't think I overdo it. It just happens naturally. I have a penpal in Texas who tells me I sound like her family from PA, just with the way I structure my sentences. I have an aversion to the words "to be." I just say "the car needs washed" or "the house needs vacuumed." I never knew that was wrong until I was called out on it! The pronunciation of "water" and "wash" around here is up for debate! I hear "wooder" and "warsh" a lot but I don't naturally say them like that. Oh, and if I say "did you eat yet" I say "jeet yet" lol. And I'll just randomly place the words "then" and "awhile" at the ends of sentences when the mood strikes. Which I also thought was normal.

    And as for the plural you.. I just say "hey (you) guys."
    "Red up your room" could be heard anywhere in Scotland. I know Amish Country and Eastern Pennsylvania a little and I always assumed the the "Dutch" part of that area was really "Deutsch" as German names and ancestry are so common there.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    I grew up in Lancaster County, and the best way that I can describe the sound of Pennsylvania Dutch is that it sounds more like scrambled English than like German. Take English, mix up all the letters of the words of a sentence, make some random words out of the phonetic soup, and then speak it. That, to me, was what PD sounded like when I was a kid. That's, of course, a description from ignorance.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Biber View Post
    What I simply cannot abide is "you guys's". I've seen many an otherwise intelligent person reduced to an absolute moron by the use of that phrase.
    Why? It's a perfectly clear possessive.

    I teach grammar for a living, but I admit the often totally arbitrary and elitist rules of insistence on certain constructions. "Ain't," for example, is perfectly clear and precise. There is no reason not to use it except for adherence to a kind of cultural protocol that is set up to distinguish the educated from the non-educated. And even though I am an educator, the elitism and classism that education has bolstered over the modern centuries is an injustice.
    "Y'all" is also quite clear. These terms exist and persist because they work and fill a gap in the formal rules of usage.
    Emphasis added. - No. Nothing elitist about being able to communicate properly within society What? I'm poor so I don't need to be able to be understood? These things entered the lexicon because of ignorance and the lack of, or acceptance of (you can lead a horse to water...) a proper education (breakdown of family structure that values education at work there), and perpetuated by its greater allowance within the culture at large (heaven forbid there actually be rules and structure in human societal existence) How quaint he needs subtitles. Coupled with the refusal of liberal and progressive educators to hold pupils to anything but the lowest standard (if any standard at all) and you have the eventual acceptance of such vulgarities as those offered here. Granted, the one I offered is problematic because English doesn't offer a distinct plural form of You/your, and there seems to be a natural desire for one where it isn't needed. Don't yous agree with I?

    The sky is the limit with kids. Expect nothing and that's what you'll get. But hold them to a higher standard and they'll come closer than you expect. Case in point - my son will never say yeah. It is always YES every time. Thank you Mr. Kurtz.
    Sent from my constipated POS computer at work.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by eachan View Post
    I know Amish Country and Eastern Pennsylvania a little and I always assumed the the "Dutch" part of that area was really "Deutsch" as German names and ancestry are so common there.
    You're correct. It's German (Deutsch). It's just an older form of Hoch-Deutsch that has developed it's own colloquializations and pronunciations. Texas has similar areas Northeast of San Antonio, where descendants of German immigrants have kept the language alive (although without the buggies and funny beards...)

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    I'm still reeling at the thought that all of a sudden "you" is no longer applicable as a plural. So me, and most people I know, have been wrong all this time. Whoda thunk!

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biber View Post

    Emphasis added. - No. Nothing elitist about being able to communicate properly within society What? I'm poor so I don't need to be able to be understood?...
    Is there something not clear about "y'all"? It's a contraction of "you all," in the same exact manner of the contraction for "do not" into "don't." There is no "ignorance" there. Just a contraction that is not sanctioned by proper formal English. And the people who use it are not "ignorant" of the proper grammar, either.

    "Youse" is just fun play. And it is very clear, too.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Juul View Post
    I'm still reeling at the thought that all of a sudden "you" is no longer applicable as a plural. So me, and most people I know, have been wrong all this time. Whoda thunk!
    It's never worked well as a plural (on its own). That's partly why these other variants exist. The formal restriction to it is kinda stoopit.

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