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Thread: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

  1. #61
    Senior Member silverlifter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by VertOlive View Post
    From what I hear in Texas:

    = 3 is “y’all”

    > 3 calls for “all y’all”

    Possessive is y’all’s

    My big linguistic discovery here is the use of “whenever” in place of “when” in almost every instance, that’s new to me. I think it’s more recent since my Dad was born in Texas but never used it.

    What do all y’all think?
    I'm good with the first part, but the "whenever" substitution seems a real strain on meaning.
    I'll pose a question here since, as I said before clarity of language are important to me, and I have a tendency to thing abstractly. Recognising that language and the meaning of a given word are often misused and, may from misuse, lose their meaning, could it be that 'whenever' originally meant a time more distant, more abstract, or more unlikely than what 'when' meant?
    According to my copy of the OED, "when ever" (initially two words) comes into first recorded use in 1380. The meaning is as we use it today, but the editors add that it also had an additional layer of meaning of "time weakened or lost." I don't know what that means, and the sample sentence is by Wycliffe in Middle English, so....I don't really understand it.

    Interesting question, though.
    That rather poetic turn, "time weakened or lost", means (paraphrasing) at that point in time when $condition is/is not fulfilled, ie., is detatched from a specific time. OED likens it to a phrase with a preposition and a gerund, eg., "on seeing..., or in saying..." So, whenever the dog barks, the guests will have arrived.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Awesome, Silver. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    When they say whenever, they are always speaking of a distinct and completed event. People of widely varied educational levels use it and each generation seems to use it. My Dad doesn’t count in this group, he’d be 114 years old today. Somewhere in there this came into use.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by VertOlive View Post
    When they say whenever, they are always speaking of a distinct and completed event. People of widely varied educational levels use it and each generation seems to use it. My Dad doesn’t count in this group, he’d be 114 years old today. Somewhere in there this came into use.
    So it is only used in the past tense? "Whenever I went to the store Friday last"? I guess it makes sense in most contexts.

    If you wanted more specificity, though, it might seem an odd construction (assuming anyone would use it like this):
    "Last Friday at noon, whenever I saw Doc Martin..."
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Senior Member Ole Juul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    I've heard the term a lot and used it myself a lot. But where I live in Western Canada "whenever" is used in the sense of "any time." I haven't heard it in any other context here, or perhaps I just hadn't noticed.

    - Whenever I drop by your house you're never in.
    - When should I come over?
    - Whenever.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by VertOlive View Post
    From what I hear in Texas:

    = 3 is “y’all”

    > 3 calls for “all y’all”

    Possessive is y’all’s

    My big linguistic discovery here is the use of “whenever” in place of “when” in almost every instance, that’s new to me. I think it’s more recent since my Dad was born in Texas but never used it.

    What do all y’all think?
    I'm good with the first part, but the "whenever" substitution seems a real strain on meaning.
    I'll pose a question here since, as I said before clarity of language are important to me, and I have a tendency to thing abstractly. Recognising that language and the meaning of a given word are often misused and, may from misuse, lose their meaning, could it be that 'whenever' originally meant a time more distant, more abstract, or more unlikely than what 'when' meant?
    According to my copy of the OED, "when ever" (initially two words) comes into first recorded use in 1380. The meaning is as we use it today, but the editors add that it also had an additional layer of meaning of "time weakened or lost." I don't know what that means, and the sample sentence is by Wycliffe in Middle English, so....I don't really understand it.

    Interesting question, though.
    The OED is my dictionary of choice and my primary reference. The Cambridge is my second choice followed by the Collins.

    I would say that 'time weakened or lost' may agree with the proposition that it means 'more abstract' if we use 'vague' as definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by VertOlive View Post
    From what I hear in Texas:

    = 3 is “y’all”

    > 3 calls for “all y’all”

    Possessive is y’all’s

    My big linguistic discovery here is the use of “whenever” in place of “when” in almost every instance, that’s new to me. I think it’s more recent since my Dad was born in Texas but never used it.

    What do all y’all think?
    I'm good with the first part, but the "whenever" substitution seems a real strain on meaning.
    I'll pose a question here since, as I said before clarity of language are important to me, and I have a tendency to thing abstractly. Recognising that language and the meaning of a given word are often misused and, may from misuse, lose their meaning, could it be that 'whenever' originally meant a time more distant, more abstract, or more unlikely than what 'when' meant?
    According to my copy of the OED, "when ever" (initially two words) comes into first recorded use in 1380. The meaning is as we use it today, but the editors add that it also had an additional layer of meaning of "time weakened or lost." I don't know what that means, and the sample sentence is by Wycliffe in Middle English, so....I don't really understand it.

    Interesting question, though.
    That rather poetic turn, "time weakened or lost", means (paraphrasing) at that point in time when $condition is/is not fulfilled, ie., is detatched from a specific time. OED likens it to a phrase with a preposition and a gerund, eg., "on seeing..., or in saying..." So, whenever the dog barks, the guests will have arrived.
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by VertOlive View Post
    When they say whenever, they are always speaking of a distinct and completed event. People of widely varied educational levels use it and each generation seems to use it. My Dad doesn’t count in this group, he’d be 114 years old today. Somewhere in there this came into use.
    So it is only used in the past tense? "Whenever I went to the store Friday last"? I guess it makes sense in most contexts. ...
    I use it. When I do, it is to express it as I suggested above, in the abstract as Silverlifter expressed, 'detached from a specific time'.

    When to me, expresses a more defined time.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Apparently "Y'all" is actually singular (according to an august interviewee on a C-Span program yesterday afternoon). The plural is "all-y-all".
    Sent from my constipated POS computer at work.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Can't remember if this was ever posted (from 2016):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...r-yall/473277/

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    It's "you all" around Washington, DC, probably from the Shenandoah and western edge of Virginia. Not "y'all", which we took as a affectation, like when Nashville put on cowboy hats and went from calling its music "hillbilly" in the 1940's to "country-western" some time in the 1950's.

    Accents in the US have been sand-papered off. TV did much of that. I confess, I listened to Chet Huntley and David Brinkley and tried not to sound like a third-generation Washingtonian. New York accents are going out. In addition to television and movies that give kids a model accent, people move more. My kids -- the grand-children plus son and daughter-in law -- are in Missouri. Daughter is in Brooklyn.

    Perhaps regional accents are stronger in Britain, but, best I could tell, the strength of accents are jumbled up with social class. Language is less of a tip-off of class in the us, where sharp-eyed people look at shoes, dress-style, food, and where the signs are more subtle.

    Accent is good.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    I must admit, “Youse” gets me shaking my head, but saying “aks” instead of “ask” e.g. “I aks you this” does me in completely.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    The above post reminded me of Michael McIntyre on Geordie accents - 1.07 minutes in:


    Regards, Chrissy | My Blog: inkyfountainpens

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    OK, this is new. In the past month I’ve heard three different native Spanish-speaking men of different age groups address three different Spanish- and non Spanish-speaking women (also of different age groups) as “mother” (in English) in a context where I’d expect to hear “m’am” instead. They were not addressing their own moms and even used it with childless women....I’m guessing a sort of honorific?
    Last edited by VertOlive; January 23rd, 2021 at 11:37 PM.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    There would have none of this confusion if we still used the word Thou.

    Huge mistake, huge.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    after marinating on this for a times, imma start using ye.
    join me if ye like, you'll feel like a pirate.

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    after marinating on this for a times, imma start using ye.
    join me if ye like, you'll feel like a pirate.
    Hear ye

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    Default Re: Yous guys wanna talk about second person plurals in here?

    "Ye" is correct everyday speech the length and breadth of Scotland and even into the north-east of England.

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