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Thread: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

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    Senior Member pajaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    So, Esterbrook is a second tier pen. I used Esterbrook to learn about different kinds of nibs, because the Esterbrooks were cheaper than learning about nibs via some other brand. There were more nib varieties available in Esterbrook. Even though Esterbrook has a following that runs up the price of some less common nibs, these were still cheaper than doing it with Montblanc, Parker, et alia. I bought a lot of the Sonnet nibs in 18K, including the broad italic and right and left obliques, and it was pricier. Some Esterbrooks have held up nicely and are even still with a good original sac. Yeah, the definition if the tiers seems to stretch.

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    Senior Member guyy's Avatar
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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NumberSix View Post
    I see "third tier" mentioned all the time for cheap and no-name vintage pens.

    Presumably, "First Tier" would be brands like Sheaffer and Montblanc.

    Is anything considered a "Second Tier"? What would it be?
    Parker had the same - in the 50's the Slimfold was for school children, and in the 60's the Parker 45. The Parker 21 was a cheaper version of the 51.
    The 21 was a 4th tier pen

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    The Super 21 was not and is not a 4th tier pen. It had the innards of a Parker 51 Special wrapped in cheaper plastic. But better plastic than the original 21. The plastic fell short of the 51's Lucite, but there is an awful lot of plastic in pens that falls short of Lucite. The Super 21 was a very decent pen. Frank Dubiel (by now perhaps an obscure person to mention) once wrote that it was the greatest bargain Parker ever sold.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    I do not think Esterbrook considered their pens second tier, but I do think Parker considered the "21" a level or two below the "51". There were even levels of the "21".

    As everyone knows, Esterbrook had a long history of nib making prior to the advent of the FP. If there is another manufacturer of a variety of nibs as Esterbrook, please let me know. Their focus, it seems, was to put the best nib according to use/need in their customers need.

    Parker was enjoying the success of their "51", but it was not affordable to everyone. Instead of cheapening the "51", they made a pen made from less expensive materials.

    Where these discussions break down is in actual use. As most of us know, the Parker 21 delivers as a fine writing instrument. I hate to repeat this, but a pen only matters where it touches the paper. We know that gold is not necessarily better than steel.

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    Senior Member guyy's Avatar
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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    Where these discussions break down is in actual use. As most of us know, the Parker 21 delivers as a fine writing instrument. I hate to repeat this, but a pen only matters where it touches the paper. We know that gold is not necessarily better than steel.
    In actual use, the 21 falls apart — often even without any use. That’s why it’s a crappy pen.

    I disagree with the idea that nothing matters except “where pen meets paper” whatever that means. At the very least ergonomics matter. I don’t care how much reverse snob appeal CHEAP_PEN has, if it’s uncomfortable or unpleasant to use, it stays uninked. Not much of a bargain then. Materials matter, too. If it’s too heavy or doesn’t last, it won’t get use.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    Where these discussions break down is in actual use. As most of us know, the Parker 21 delivers as a fine writing instrument. I hate to repeat this, but a pen only matters where it touches the paper. We know that gold is not necessarily better than steel.
    In actual use, the 21 falls apart — often even without any use. That’s why it’s a crappy pen.

    I disagree with the idea that nothing matters except “where pen meets paper” whatever that means. At the very least ergonomics matter. I don’t
    care how much reverse snob appeal CHEAP_PEN has, if it’s uncomfortable or unpleasant to use, it stays uninked. Not much of a bargain then. Materials matter, too. If it’s too heavy or doesn’t last, it won’t get use.
    Sorry to inform you, but that's just your experience regarding the Parker 21. In my experience, you could not be more out of touch with reality, with all due respect.

    There is room in my mind for you to disagree, but it is not an orginal thought of mine. Nothing can occur well, for the reason a pin is used, unless the nib suits the user. No amount of bling, heft, or precious resin can overcome a poor nib, or a nib that doen't suit the user.

    I read about Fred Krinke's passing a couple of years back, “I wouldn’t trade this pen for love or money,” he told The Times in 1998, grinning as he held the 1950 Esterbrook skyward. “It’s not for sale.” This led me to consider just how well made for use the Esterbrook really is. It pleased me that I serendipitly began my FP journey buying and restoring, to my specs, old Esterbrooks.
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; January 3rd, 2021 at 08:40 AM.

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    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ...Sorry to inform you, but that's just your experience regarding the Parker 21. In my experience, you could not be more out of touch with reality, with all due respect....
    Chuck, what's going on?

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Nothings going on. Go back to sleep...LOL!!

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    You seem a little challenging today, Chuck, what with "condesending" to me and all...

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by eachan View Post
    You seem a little challenging today, Chuck, what with "condesending" to me and all...
    That's why I said what I did, sir. If I were challenged, there would have been no pretext. Good grief man!!

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    In decades of pen hunting, i’ve passed up many 21s with cracked barrels. They crack because they were made with cheap plastic to save costs. I’ve also bought a few 21s that cracked on me or the people i gave them to. The cracks typically develop when you screw down the barrel after refills. It’s not just my experience. Parker themselves made better budget models, such as the Slimfold and 45 mentioned upstream.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    I don't see much usefulness to this idea of "tiers" for brands. How does it actually matter in any practical sense? Sound a bit like the categories that colleges are broken into, which is mostly done for the benefit of those at the "top". It's a kind of class system, no?

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    I agree, TSherbs. There is no substitute for evaluating the individual pen.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    I think Wasp and Esterbrook were 2nd tier. They were good pens, just not the fanciest.
    I read Richard's "tiers" articles, finishing with the obvious question: where was Esterbrook? (The only WASP I know was a sub-brand by WA Shaeffer Pen Company). The Estie was no Third Tier pen, and priced well under Parker - Sheaffer pens.

    Unlike the other Second Tier pens, Esterbrook survived the Depression and thrived into the 1950s in a price-slot that, my guess, was killed by reliable ballpoints. My sense of pen-pricing about 1960 or 1961: Parker 45 -> $4.98. Parker Jotter -> $1.98. Five or ten years earlier, the Esterbrook would have been about the price that the T-Ball Jotter took.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    I have two Parker 21´s one was given to me in 1961, the other one is even older, it belonged to my father, doesn´t even have an arrow clip.

    I haven´t used them for a long time, but none have developed any issues, much less fell apart.

    Not bad for a "crappy pen"
    Last edited by Wahl; January 4th, 2021 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Jonathan Steinberg, in Fountain Pens of 1994, had his own classification for fountain pen companies, based on value, with high value pens at the top (mostly overlays) and three lower values. He didn't actually use the word "tier" but it's similar. It doesn't really work for me because the output of many companies varied but they had to fit into one or other of his classifications and he did so quite arbitrarily, it seems to me. One estimate of value is consistent: he didn't appreciate steel-nibbed pens. That rather discounts, for instance, the Esterbrook, a very good pen indeed.

    Steinberg's classification, and the tier system, depend greatly on an estimation of the value of pens as personal jewellery rather than as writing instruments. It's true that the price of a pen with solid gold or silver overlay is higher than the plain version but it doesn't write better. I suppose the writer/collector dichotomy may explain some of this wish to classify. As TSherbs has said above, it doesn't add anything to our enjoyment of pens, vintage or current.

    If one must classify, value isn't the only way to do it. If the system was based on practicality and durability some pens that are poorly regarded in the Steinberg system would be placed much higher.

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wahl View Post
    I have two Parker 21´s one was given to me in 1961, the other one is even older, it belonged to my father, doesn´t even have an arrow clip.

    I haven´t used them for a long time, but none have developed any issues, much less fall apart.

    Not bad for a "crappy pen"
    Very true.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    So, Esterbrook is a second tier pen.
    I'm not certain I agree with that. The company stayed in business, they had clearly cataloged models, and the materials they made the pens out of have lasted, as attested to by the many that are still around. One can make a bit of an argument, saying that they didn't feature any gp models or that the plastic tassies were cheap (and chipped), but as I stated near the beginning of this thread, the delineations of the pen brands into 3 or more "tiers" is a loose, non-rigorously-applied format. Even if someone were to come up with actual definitions for what would determine the tiers, there would be crossovers and gray areas.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    In decades of pen hunting, i’ve passed up many 21s with cracked barrels. They crack because they were made with cheap plastic to save costs. I’ve also bought a few 21s that cracked on me or the people i gave them to. The cracks typically develop when you screw down the barrel after refills. It’s not just my experience. Parker themselves made better budget models, such as the Slimfold and 45 mentioned upstream.
    Friend, we are not talking about damaged pens......

    "God bless American"!!!

    Why do people double down trying to validate their opinions?????Crazy!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: First Tier, Second Tier, Third Tier?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't see much usefulness to this idea of "tiers" for brands. How does it actually matter in any practical sense? Sound a bit like the categories that colleges are broken into, which is mostly done for the benefit of those at the "top". It's a kind of class system, no?
    Exactly, it seems a few of us see it clearly that attaching the "tier" concept to a brand will only result in confusion and disagreement (see portion of this very thread for an example).

    But good luck dislodging this idea from collectors, experienced or not, it seems that it's so easy to say brand A is 1st, 2nd, 3rd tiers, and then confusing it with which model? which pen? which era? not to mention pens in which I-like-personally-no-matter-what-everyone-else-say.

    It seems like we just like to argue

    To those who are keen to continue the confusing "discussion", have it your way.

    I'll just go back to my collection of "Gold Bond" pens which are n-th tier pens.
    The "n" stands for "none", in case you're wondering.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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